Crit Multiplier + Diamond Flask (still) too powerful

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lethal_papercut написал:

I do not wish for Diamonds to be stat nerfed or taken out the game. I love the way they work, they are great as an 'oh shit' flask for a temporary burst in damage. That mechanic is very cool & adds a very nice aspect to the game in general. The problem occurs when your can run 5diamonds. THAT is the crux of the issue, not the crit chance, not increase in DPS but the chaining of flasks.

Take away the ability to use 5diamonds and you have a very well balanced & fun flask.

5 is the problem, not the damage, not the 100% crit chance, just that you can use 5.

Diamond flasks are in no way, shape or form balanced.

When they are the only dps-increasing flask, and some specs can garner up to 8 times the value from the flask as another spec (resolute tech. vs crit multi stacking).

Diamond flasks should become debuff-applying flasks. 100% crit chance with normalised crit multiplier. Or, better yet, just increase chance to apply secondaries and no effect on the crit chance.

I feel like they are balanced on their own. Every single build in the game that doesn't use RT can use a Diamond flask. If you choose to go RT then you are benefiting by the 100% hit rate and that is the balance to not having crit.

Changing the crit chance on Diamonds makes them very niche & would not work well with builds that aren't already stacked in crit chance.

If everyone could only use 1 Diamond then I don't see how anyone could argue that they are overpowered or game breaking like they currently are.

Blabla, flasks are unbalanced alltogether.

Think of how balanced it would be NOT to have flasks and instead only equal crit chance / multip possibilities for passives.

I mean, just stick with the core of the game: Gear and skills. I thought this game was all about choices and flasks is kind of ruining that.

I can explain best taking PvP as the example: Build a character and only focus on damage and maybe defense and take a flask with you that suits best.

You know; where is it going to stop? Now we have Diamond Flasks and Granite and Elemental Resist, soon also Quicksilver and what is next? Wanna put a flask in there that gives you massive Evasion or Energy Shield?

It is just nonsense, you already have these features implemented with gear and skills no need at all for these flasks. They are only unbalancing this fantastic game!!

It's like: Oh you dont have the amount of crit chance you want? Here take a magic flask this will give you 100%. It is like a childish solution so somebody does not have to come up with a proper build to obtain what he needs.

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lethal_papercut написал:

I feel like they are balanced on their own. Every single build in the game that doesn't use RT can use a Diamond flask. If you choose to go RT then you are benefiting by the 100% hit rate and that is the balance to not having crit.

Changing the crit chance on Diamonds makes them very niche & would not work well with builds that aren't already stacked in crit chance.

If everyone could only use 1 Diamond then I don't see how anyone could argue that they are overpowered or game breaking like they currently are.

Easy, it breaks current build viability. While yes, 5 diamonds are rather strong, at the same time, they are giving up other flasks for this. If you add more flasks that do stuff relevant to the end game, these 5-diamond flask builds suffer more and more.

Adding some arbitrary and unintuitive restriction to diamonds, you are not only harming build viability, you are simply not creating any either.

As it stands, if you introduce more/different offensive end game flask options, you not only nerf diamonds by virtue of existence, you also create build viability.

+Imo, 5 diamonds are an extremely large liability to most builds, at least if you plan on gaining xp at all.

here we go again, people asking that builds i enjoy be nerfed.

there are several cons in using 5 diamond flasks - at least with my build. if i desync i typically die, chaos damage sucks sometimes if i run out of mobs to kill (as i cannot regen health, and even if i could, i don't have any health pots that i could use), and even burning ground is a threat when you're doing spider lair or something of the like. it's a high risk high reward build and it adds variety to the build spectrum. hell, i don't even want to do maps with -player resist or elemental weakness, because if i crit on a group of ele reflect mobs when my resistances aren't capped, my health plummets.

also, with the addition of those quicksilver flasks, most people will be limited to 4 diamond flasks because they won't want to sacrifice the movement speed that used to come from phase run.

i think it's fine the way it is.

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EpsiIon написал:

Easy, it breaks current build viability. While yes, 5 diamonds are rather strong, at the same time, they are giving up other flasks for this. If you add more flasks that do stuff relevant to the end game, these 5-diamond flask builds suffer more and more.

Exactly. I wasn't quite sure there was a meeting of the minds between us, your last reply had me slightly confused (I'll write it off to mild intoxication and excessive exhaustion).. but now I'm fairly confident we agree completely.

5 Diamond precludes the use of any other flasks. This is currently only significant for defensive purposes, as the only other purely offensive flask is Mana, and that entire system is completely broken atm (and honestly, requires way more attention atm than diamonds do) such that once your mana problems are fixed, they're fixed so well you forget you even had mana to begin with (aka, mana flasks are irrelevant; see also, no competition for offensive flask slots). So, back on topic, the only competing flasks are defensive in nature: Life (in a similar situation to Mana, though slightly more relevant given how awesome a pair of life flasks perform with instant recovery and double recovery on low life mods), Granite, and Elemental Resistance.

Some builds may find these relevant, others may not. The relevance will increase significantly across the board as more flasks begin competing for the limited 5-slot capacity. Personally, I find ele res flasks paramount to success when farming ele weakness + added ele damage modded maps (great iiq, very difficult to play; expanded res cap really helps especially when you meet the random ele reflect mod, which is a real bitch without the flasks!).

Regardless of all that, I still contend that crit chance can compete with diamond flasks, the only reason it doesn't is because people are too lazy to try and figure out how. And even regardless of that, I still contend that all of this is irrelevant because we are all playing in a vacuum left by lack of content! Wait until diamonds have genuine flask slot competition. Then let's see how "broken" they are. Or as I predict, how gimped they will be by precluding the use of any other flask by the builds' very own natures.

Aww boo hoo you're Death's Harp build might get nerfed so you actually have to think about passives allocation...meanwhile in the rest of the game crit chance nodes aren't totally redundant & if people want high crit the have to actually invest in it.

There is no way Diamonds are going to stay the way they are, GGG aren't that stupid.

I hope they are smart enough to realise that flasks don't belong in this game.

All these mathematics around passives and gear and the synergy and then there are flasks.

Isn't it obvious for you guys?? Flasks clearly need a nerve, 100% crit damage with 0 points invested in crit chance passives and everything pumped in crit multiplier is just not fair. You would need to use Granite Flasks or something.

Open your eyes and see that without flasks the game is much easier to balance out. It is simple: Gear and skills give you the stats, there should not be a stupid flask that temporary unbalances the game.

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Startkabels написал:

I hope they are smart enough to realise that flasks don't belong in this game.

this guy. don't be like this guy.

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lethal_papercut написал:

Aww boo hoo you're Death's Harp build might get nerfed so you actually have to think about passives allocation...meanwhile in the rest of the game crit chance nodes aren't totally redundant & if people want high crit the have to actually invest in it.

There is no way Diamonds are going to stay the way they are, GGG aren't that stupid.

Sorry. I hope you know, I really like you, Lethal. But I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall. You just said the same thing for the twentieth time. I've been repeating myself too. So let's quit circle jerking the convo and address each other directly: what do you think? Do you think Diamond flasks will still be so op when those flask slots have more competition via other varieties of flasks, some of which may be necessary at some point, much like switching out rings to overcompensate for resistance penalties? Do you think you might consider them abusable because they're currently the only dps flask? Think about the future, and what it may hold, given that we already know more flasks are to come.. do you think diamonds might be at least a little bit limited given that their passives and gear mods are wasted without guaranteed crits, and changing out flasks for something more necessary might mean they lose out on that diversity?