the biggest "LIE" of this game...

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Nephalim написал:

Yes...and its precisely this design choice that allows for poe's version of builds instead of a preset number of skills for a certain class. youre so caught up in convention that anything outside your prior arpg experience is inferior in complexity.

I'm not caught up in anything, and prefacing your post with an insult is just a derailment tactic. All RPGs of all types have 'unlimited' build diversity if you class 'build diversity' as using a different spell and nothing more.

Once again, all PoE does is 'reduce' 'diversity' by eliminating the character creation screen, because it's radical method of defining a build post-character creation doesn't actually offer that many 'significantly defining' options. A character that specialises in Freezing Pulse is not 'that different' to a build which specialises in Fireball - it's still a skin using one spell that has remarkably similar 'style' to a skin using another spell.

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Nephalim написал:

I made the example about binding skills to classes as this would certainly give the illusion of 'diversity'. Suddenly only witches can cast spells, only marauders can use 2 handed attack gems, and only rangers can use bow gems. Is this not the tailoring and R-pg element youre looking for?

Why do you even bring up this suggestion? I have not alluded to this as a solution and neither have I suggested that this is what creates diversity. It's something you've invented from your own daft assumptions.

I'll say it again, for the hard of comprehension, PoE could stick to their model of no class creation and still have huge diversity if the passive skill tree and Gems actually had genuine diversity to it - but it doesn't, it just has a few non-dramatic Keystones and some ways to slightly increase weapon/spell specialisation combined with primary stat increasers.

Take any RPG which permits some form of *choice* and select a Wizard. Now have that Wizard only be allowed to pick 5 spells and 4 tree-skills - that game suddenly has 'unlimited' numbers of 'build' combinations - because that game has 100 Wizard Spells and 50 tree-skill destinations. And this is before you've selected weapon choice and gear.

But what that game will *also* have is the options to go for good or evil or neutral (3x build possibilities) a choice between 6 innate stats (2x PoE's number) a choice between different races (20x PoE's choices) a choice between different classes (2x PoE's classes) - I could go on with the list, but you know, it gets boring REPEATING stuff and it gets boring WRITING OUT A MASSIVE LIST.

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Nephalim написал:

Again, confusing 'class' and 'build'.

Oh, that's sweet. Suddenly 'class' is not even considered 'part' of a build. That's just great that is - which weapon you choose is 'build relevant' but which 'class' you choose 'isn't'? Oh, hohohohohohohohoho.

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Nephalim написал:

Dual curser, aura support, BM keystone bow user, tank, ranged aoe, single target burster but build diversity does not necessarily mean they need to be wholly synergistic with each other.

Excellent, a small list of what happens if you choose a certain keystone with a certain Gem (of which this can even be avoided by having gear which has the keystone on it). So great, PoE has a 'basic set' of diversity - which, to the pedant, is *unlimited*, but, in reality, is just your usual collection of RPG basic builds.

But do any of these 'builds' offer anything 'different' to the game you are playing? Does playing a Shadow actually feel like a Shadow? What is so 'different' about choosing a Shadow instead of a Scion?

I'll tell you what is different - a few passive points, that's it. Other than it has no imapct on your game whasoever. The Shadow cannot be 'more adept' at 'sneaking', 'unlocking', 'Assassinating', 'back-stabbing' etc etc etc - so what can a Shadow offer the player that a Scion can't?

The answer - a few passive points - basically, nothing. So by designing a game which has it's diversity as being anyone can do anything, one has to ask, why didn't they stick with their original vision of just having one bleeding class that can do anything? What is the goddamn point of having 7 classes who can all do everything?

They are just SKINS. Take any half-decent RPG and select a Fighter and you will have exactly the same build diversity as PoE. But all those other games offer an additional 100 other 'definitely different' starting options.

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Nephalim написал:

Are you referring to a 'class' or a 'build' because you shift back and forth between the two. It comes down to how playing in a 6 man group 'feels'? What are you supposed to be feeling while grinding through a map other than monsters dying as people hold down right click?

I'll ignore the first sentence as you should have read my previous replies if your reading this. To your next point, what is the reason for having the game based on 6 man groups? The only reason is that it makes the game sociable. Why is the game based on 6 characters? Why not 4, why not 8? The reason is 'arbitrary' and it has nothing to do with 'skill balance requirements'. They can all open chests equally well. They can all buy items equally well, they can all spam a kill-skill equally well, they can all aura equally well - the one differential? They can't MF and Kill-speed (though even then some can). Whoop-de do, a team 'needs' something.

They are all small varieties of the same 'build'.

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Nephalim написал:

It should be painfully clear class is not the same as build and no one said a bow ranger was much different than a duelist shadow. no one was arguing this point. A spork shadow is not going to be different from a spork witch or even a spork templar because they all occupy the same quadrant of the tree. this is intentional and irrelevant as a bases for argumentation for lack of build diversity.

Of course class is not the same as build 'in Path of Exile'... because PoE 'does not have' classes. It has skins with mildly different starting positions and a different starting base-stat. And again, this obsession with excluding 'class' from the 'build' is, again, explained above and you will have already seen an answer to this if you have read this far.

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Nephalim написал:

You are desperately pulling at straws and still not answering the most basic of questions: what do you think constitutes a build and what is enough to differentiate between them. Without this baseline how can you make assertions about the lack of build diversity in poe or any other game for that matter.

I have stated a huge number if times what I define a 'build' as and why PoE might have *unlimited* 'builds' but also why, in terms of 'comparison' is actually has less 'diversity' than practically any other RPG. That the system of eliminating classes, effectively, proves this - the mere fact that the game provides different classes, but then doesn't give them any reason to be different classes, is proof that the devs themselves are somewhat confused about the entire concept of classes and 'build variety' and even their 'original vision'.

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Nephalim написал:

Your entire argument is dependent on the notion that any class can be any build and as a result, poe has little build diversity.

No.

My 'entire argument' is that:

Any class can be any build - therefore what's the point of being a different class.

COMBINED WITH

The different skills that one can acquire via Gems and Tree-skill do not actually provide 'different characters', they provide the exact same character doing something slightly differently - which is, yes, having a different 'build', but it's not 'build diversity', because specialising in Freezing Pulse is not A GREAT DEAL OF DIFFERENCE to specialising in Fireball.

.