"Damage over time" nodes with puncture

I think I lost you on what I was trying to conclude. Was going over the point that entropy and burn scale additively.

I discussed this with my friend who uses a split arrow crit build(with puncture single). We concluded that since nothing scales the bleeding part of puncture then entropy is indeed multiplying all your damage.

It has a nice list of pros and cons. Pros: It's unreflected, it's a huge multiplier on the bleeding part of puncture that is unrivaled when you already have huge crit multi/physical damage.

Cons: It only scales the puncture part so all hits after that are unaffected by the node. It will only scale puncture so your AoE gets nothing from it assuming you use splitarrow. It's worse versus targets that are mainly stationary(especially if you end up stunning/freezing).

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kasub написал:

I discussed this with my friend who uses a split arrow crit build(with puncture single). We concluded that since nothing scales the bleeding part of puncture then entropy is indeed multiplying all your damage.

Chances are though that you do have some other mods that scale the bleeding part. For instance, "Projectile Damage" or "Physical Damage".

The main things that *don't* boost the bleed directly are anything to do with 'Attacks' (or Spells for that matter), and anything to do with critical strikes (DOTs cannot crit).

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Chances are though that you do have some other mods that scale the bleeding part. For instance, "Projectile Damage" or "Physical Damage".

They don't scale the actual bleeding. They increase the physical damage of puncture which in turn increases the bleeding. An indirect scaling.

At level 19 puncture does 144% damage to moving targets. With entropy circle it goes over 200%. With physical nodes it will still be 144% damage to moving targets.

Unless you mean a 18% physical node increases both the hit and DoT by 18% like fire damage increases burn?..

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kasub написал:

They don't scale the actual bleeding. They increase the physical damage of puncture which in turn increases the bleeding. An indirect scaling.

Nope, they scale both. Those 8% Projectile Damage nodes are great value for money on a Puncture build.

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Daniel_GGG написал:

Things that will directly affect bleed damage from Puncture (off the top of my head):

• Damage modifiers
• Damage over time modifiers
• Physical damage modifiers
• Projectile damage modifiers (if applied with a projectile)
• Area damage modifiers (if applied with an AoE)
• Totem damage modifiers (if applied with a totem)
• Trap damage modifiers (if applied with a trap)
• Mine damage modifiers (if applied with a mine)

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Nope, they scale both. Those 8% Projectile Damage nodes are great value for money on a Puncture build.

You know, that was my initial thought going into this topic then I changed my mind. While I appreciate the dev post, it really doesn't state that puncture double dips from these nodes.

They do directly affect puncture of course since they increase its damage which increases the bleeding damage. The actual DoT which is 144% per second(19 punc) won't increase from these nodes though. Observations have also shown that since it would be a silly bleeding % if it did.

At this point I'm really confused.

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kasub написал:

You know, that was my initial thought going into this topic then I changed my mind. While I appreciate the dev post, it really doesn't state that puncture double dips from these nodes.

You'll notice that the dev post doesn't mention things like "Physical Attack Damage", which only indirectly increase Puncture bleeding.

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Observations have also shown that since it would be a silly bleeding % if it did.

Look at some of the build guides out there. Puncture really can do silly damage, and it's not because the initial hit does silly damage.

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Look at some of the build guides out there. Puncture really can do silly damage, and it's not because the initial hit does silly damage.

I use puncture and it's only really impressive against bosses/exiles. Splitarrow is usually better against even single white mobs since I hit faster(although puncture is a single hit setup).

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You'll notice that the dev post doesn't mention things like "Physical Attack Damage", which only indirectly increase Puncture bleeding.

He mentions physical damage modifiers... which encompasses physical bow modifiers and general physical modifiers(such as oak).

I'm highly unconvinced those nodes double dip. Puncture does high damage but it's not doing more than 144% per second(which is huge when you have 700 crit multi and land a crit).

Would love for Mark to interrupt this convo and clear things up.

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kasub написал:

I use puncture and it's only really impressive against bosses/exiles. Splitarrow is usually better against even single white mobs since I hit faster(although puncture is a single hit setup).

It sounds like you're just dabbling in Puncture. That's fine, but a dedicated Puncture build is a whole different ballgame. Se for instance this thread for some pointers.

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kasub написал:

He mentions physical damage modifiers... which encompasses physical bow modifiers and general physical modifiers(such as oak).

"Physical Damage" improves the bleeding directly, because it deals physical damage.

"Physical Attack Damage" does not, because damage over time is not considered attack damage.

See also:

http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/910908

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It sounds like you're just dabbling in Puncture. That's fine, but a dedicated Puncture build is a whole different ballgame. Se for instance this thread for some pointers.

It's my single target attack. I've done all bosses multiple times and mainly focus on 76-78 maps. I know how powerful it is.

The linked topic has an ok puncture build but it's not really optimized.

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Physical Damage" improves the bleeding directly, because it deals physical damage.

"Physical Attack Damage" does not, because damage over time is not considered attack damage.

Ok I misunderstood you, I see what you mean now. So physical damage off rustic sash,the scion notable node path of the warrior,specific uniques and oak's reward will also make the bleed stronger. I thought you were saying normal bow physical nodes enhanced the bleed.

So a 8% projectile node is far better than a 8% physical attack node, correct? From what you've said the 8% projectile node will boost both the initial hit and the bleed.

So entropy is additive with those making it a much smaller boost than I initially thought(and not really worth it combined with its cons).

Thanks for having this discussion. If bleed is indeed enhanced by projectile damage then that's a decent damage increase for the build I have.

so what i get from this, is 'physical damage with bows'
ofc increases the initial hit of puncture and thus the base DoT.

but does NOT apply to the DoT thus increasing the bleed a second time.

you use an attack with a bow, which shoots a projectile attack, which creates a dot.
so projectile damage applies to the DoT, but '(physical)damage with bows' does not.

so the game engine, looking at a projectile mid flight,
may not actually know if it was shot by a bow or wand.
or something.