Can someone please clarify how damage modifiers work exactly?
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I've looked at the wiki here: http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Modifiers but I'd like some clarification to make sure I'm understanding this correctly. Here are some relevant parts from the wiki:
" Okay, so let's go through a series of examples so I can understand if I'm misinterpreting something and, if so, where. There's a tl;dr if you don't want to wade through the examples.
Examples
First, let's say there's a character with no passive skill point allocated who's using a normal white mace with a basic attack that does 100 damage. Simple enough.
Now he finds a magical mace with 100 damage and a 50% increased physical damage modifier. He should now be doing 150 damage with his basic attack. Now he decides to use a level 1 Glacial Hammer instead of a basic attack. This deals 130% base damage and converts 50% of physical damage to cold damage. So now he should be doing 150*1.3=195 total damage, half of which is converted to cold. So 97.5 physical and 97.5 cold. Right so far? Now he allocates some skill points, taking +10% melee physical damage in passive skill tree nodes. This is a global percentage modifier, so it is applied last meaning that now he's doing 97.5+(97.5*0.1)=107.25 physical and 98 cold rather than having the 150 damage increased by ten percent and then converting to cold. Is this right? Or is the "does 130% base damage" a "skill multiplicative/percentage modifier" and, thus, applied before, or at the same time as, the 10% physical bonus? Now he finds a new weapon, another mace with 100 damage and a +50% increased physical damage modifier, but this one has an inherent 20% increased elemental damage. Am I correct in assuming that this wouldn't change the damage at all, since it's a local percentage modifier and thus applied before damage conversion? And that even if he were, say, running Herald of Ice that bonus damage wouldn't be increased since it is a flat modifier from a skill? Essentially, the only thing that is effected by 20% increased elemental damage is any flat elemental damage bonuses that might be on the weapon (or any spells cast while wielding it that do elemental damage)? Now he decides to craft some Cold damage onto his mace and allocates some more skill points, getting +10% increased Cold damage. For simplicity's sake, we'll say he crafts a flat added 20 cold damage onto the mace. Assuming I was correct in the previous example, he's now doing 100 physical + 20 cold damage modified by the weapon's 50% physical damage bonus and 20% increased elemental damage to become 150 physical + 24 cold damage, modified again by the Glacial Hammer skill which increases the base damage by 130% meaning that it's now 150*1.3=195 physical + 20*1.3=31.2 cold damage with half of that physical damage being converted to cold making it 97.5 physical + 138.7 cold damage, which then gets further modified by his passives, becoming 97.5+(97.5*0.1)=107.25 physical and 138.7+(138.7*0.1)=152.57 cold damage. Finally, he decides to run a level 1 Hatred aura in addition to all the above. This adds 26% of physical damage as cold damage, and is factored in after the local bonuses but before passive nodes or damage conversion. So it adds 26% of the damage value of the mace modified with the 50% physical damage bonus as cold damage. Now he's doing 150 physical + 24+(150*0.26)=63 cold damage (since the Hatred damage is not modified by the mace's 10% elemental damage bonus), which is increased by the 130% Base Damage of Glacial Hammer to become 150*1.3=195 physical damage (converted to 97.5 physical and 97.5 cold damage) + 63*1.3=81.9 cold damage to make 97.5 physical damage + 179.4 cold damage, finally modified by the passives to become 97.5+(97.5*0.1)=107.25 physical + 179.4+(179.4*0.1) = 197.34 cold damage. Have I made any mistakes? tl;dr: tell me if any of this is wrong: -Damage bonuses stack such that anything you get from the passive tree is always factored in last (after damage conversion and flat bonuses), so stacking physical damage in a build that uses a skill that converts physical damage to an elemental type (such as Glacial Hammer) will not increase that damage prior to conversion but instead will increase the final physical damage value (so if you get a bunch of physical damage nodes when using Glacial Hammer they will essentially only be applying to 50% of the damage rather than inflating the damage before conversion; it won't affect how much cold damage you're doing). -Any "increased elemental damage with weapons" will only affect flat elemental damage modifiers on the weapon itself (no auras or heralds) but will increase this damage before passive nodes or skills that give "more" or "increased" percentages for the relevant damage type -"Does x% of base damage" from skills (such as Glacial Hammer stating it does 130% of base damage) will be factored in after any bonuses that are listed on the weapon, but before any damage conversion or passive tree bonuses. -Hatred's damage bonus is derived from your physical damage after weapon mods but before any passive skills are factored in. Question: is Hatred's damage increased by other things that fit into the "Global and skill flat modifiers" category, such as a flat physical damage bonus on an amulet? Thanks in advance to anyone who helps me out with this. |
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" Wrong. Both the cold and physical damage will be increased by %physical modifiers after conversion takes place. This happens because after a conversion happens the converted damage benefits from both new modifiers (in this case cold, elemental) and the ones from the converted source (in this case physical, attack, melee). " Wrong, all increased factors are only applied once. Increased elemental damage with weapons (aka weapon elemental damage) is different from normal elemental damage only by the factor it doesn't affect spells or traps. " In this case you can treat x% as MORE or LESS damage, in those terms that it scales everything on the end or on the begining, doesn't really matter in the end because it multiplies your damage and multiplication is a commutative operation. " Hatred's damage is determined after the sum of all flat physical sources and your weapon is calculated, afterwards it is increased by all the modifiers that would increase your physical or weapon cold damage. [2.2] The Vampire - Tanky 2H Axe Slayer Duelist - /view-thread/1611662
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Double post for clarity:
" Correct so far. " All increased modifiers apply at the same time, only difference is in what magnitude they apply (if at all). In your case it would be as following: 97.5 * 1.1 = 107.25 physical 97.5 * 1.1 = 107.25 cold Because the cold portion of damage was derived from a physical melee attack, it benefits from modifiers that would apply to that damage also + new modifiers of cold and elemental. " There is no local increased elemental damage to my knowledge. It's effect should be same as a 20% increased elemental damage from passives. Herald of ice and Hatred would both benefit from it, as would any elemental damage from buffs or gear. " In this case his correct damage would be: 100 physical 20 cold 50 physical gets turned into cold, resulting in following: 50 physical (increased by melee, mace and physical passives) 50 cold (increased by melee, mace, physical passives, cold and elemental) 20 cold (increased by elemental and cold passives) Final damage calculation: 50 * 1.3[glacial hammer base] * 1.5[weapon local increase] * (1.0+0.1[10% melee phys damage]) = 107.25 final physical damage 50 * 1.3[glacial hammer] * 1.5[weapon local increase] * (1.0+0.3[10% melee phys damage+20% elemental]) = 126.75 cold from conversion 20 * 1.3[glacial hammer] * (1.0 + 0.2[elemental damage]) = 31.2 cold from the 20 cold from the weapon Final damage is: 107.25 physical 157.95 cold damage Note: templars 10% melee damage do not say "melee phys damage" and as such would also boost the 20 cold flat damage from the weapon because they apply to both physical and elemental melee attacks. " Simmilar to the conversion hatred damage will be calculated as such: 1. sum all flat physical damage from jewelry and other source and add it to weapon physical damage 2. a percantage of that is added as base cold damage to your attacks 3. that cold damage is increased by both physical, mace, melee, cold and elemental modifiers similar to conversion cold damage. [2.2] The Vampire - Tanky 2H Axe Slayer Duelist - /view-thread/1611662
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Wait, so after damage conversion the damage counts as both the new type and the old one? So if you convert 50% of your physical damage to cold damage, that converted cold damage still counts as physical for the purposes of "increased" or "more" mods? That's pretty counterintuitive =(
Also, I'm still not sure why Heralds or Anger/Wrath/Hatred would benefit from a local % increased elemental damage mod. According to the wiki mods of that nature are applied before flat skill bonuses, wouldn't the percentage increase have already taken effect in that case? Or am I perhaps misinterpreting what they mean by "Modifiers are applied in this order?" Finally RE: local increased elemental damage, some maces have it as an inherent mod. A Driftwood Scepter, for instance, has 10% increased elemental damage. Последняя редакция: TheMongrel#3988. Время: 18 июл. 2015 г., 17:51:06
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" Correct, converted damage inherits all previous damage types. Whether it is counter-intuitive or not, it is how the game functions. Again, as far as i know the only local modifiers are: % increased physical damage % increased physical damage and accuracy % increased attack speed % increased critical chance Every other mod should be general and apply the same way as if you had it on a ring or from a passive tree. Local increased elemental damage doesn't exist, it's a global modifier and as such applies at the same time as your elemental damage passives and elemental damage increases from other equipment slots. Edit: From wiki, local mods: " The "Damage (all types)" doesn't refer to weapon elemental damage or elemental damage, it refers to flat physical/elemental damage on a weapon, aka the damage on the weapon tooltip. [2.2] The Vampire - Tanky 2H Axe Slayer Duelist - /view-thread/1611662 Последняя редакция: Mannoth#4185. Время: 18 июл. 2015 г., 17:03:52
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It seems you're right, though I wish the wiki was more clear. I think the confusion primarily stems from the fact that converted damage counts as both types for mods (which is mentioned under the Damage Conversion wiki, but not under the Modifiers one) and the fact that % increased elemental damage (or elemental weapon damage) is not a local modifier to the weapon given its similarity to % increased physical damage and the vagueness of "Damage (all types)" in the list of local mods.
Anyway, thanks for the help. =) |
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