[LONG] Single-target melee skills and Melee Splash are ATROCIOUS - Discussion and Suggestions

EDIT:

This is really long-winded, so I'm presenting the tl;dr first:

1. Most AoE 'Melee' attacks deal 2-3 times more single-target damage than actual single-target Melee attacks;

2. In addition to doing less damage than the AoE skills, the single-target Melee skills are penalized by having to use Melee Splash, which eats a support gem, and provides a pathetic AoE effect;

3. In addition to doing more damage than the single-target skills, AoE skills can use the spare socket they save, by not taking Melee Splash, on a support gem that actually increases their damage/quality of life;

4. The AoE abilities, and play style for the AoE skills is vastly superior to using a single-target skill with Melee Splash;

5. Melee Splash is utter trash;
Single-target Melee attacks should all be doing 2 to 3 times more damage than they are currently;

6. I propose a new skill gem tag 'Single-target'; and

7.I propose changes to Melee Splash and 3 new support skill gems for Melee attacks, primarily to help Single-target Melee skills.

Article

Given all the recent discussion about Blade Flurry and its effective Base Attack Damage ("BAD"), I've put together a spreadsheet:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jkRFSPiaJkDqmOTxTegnmgtA3ARhD0H_f6DSVIi0MUk/edit?usp=sharing

Using the tooltip BAD for each melee skill, I've then calculated the Effective BAD for each skill. In doing so, I took into account features of the gem such as Less or More attack speed, secondary effects, such as Molten Strike's projectiles, Earthquake's aftershock, etc. For attacks with variables, I included several entries. For skills like Frenzy and Flicker Strike, I included the skill-based bonus of Frenzy Charges, assuming an abstracted build that has 150% increased attack speed and 500% increased damage.

I then calculated a single target BAD, and an AoE BAD for each skill. For skills without a built in AoE effect, I calculated their AoE BAD on the basis of using Melee Splash (26% Less damage). So I am basically comparing between:
1. The single target skills PLUS Melee Splash support gem; and
2. the AoE skills on their own.

So once you abstract it a bit, I'm basically comparing a 6L single-target skill to a 5L AoE skill.

Skills with several entries that may require explanation:
Sunder includes a separate entry for hitting the target(s) with the attack and 0, 1, 2, 3, and 4 shockwaves;
Ancestral Protector and Ancestral Warchief include separate entries for having 1, 2, and 3 totems;
Blade Flurry has separate entries for making 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 attacks;
Puncture has an entry for the first hit that causes the bleed and a separate entry for how much damage later hits cause;
Lacerate has an entry for hitting with 1 sweep, and hitting with both;
Flicker Strike includes separate entries for having 0, 4, and 7 Frenzy Charges;
Frenzy includes separate entries for having 0, 4, and 7 Frenzy Charges;
Ice Crash includes a separate entry for the first, second, and third stage; and
Shield Charge includes a separate entry for 100% and 0 charge distance.

There are two sheets, one where the skills are listed from greatest to least single-target BAD, and one listed from greatest to least AoE BAD.

What I Learned

There is a HUGE variance between the effective BAD of attack skills. 6 stack Blade Flurry deals 405% to a single target. Glacial Hammer deals 181%. Puncture deals 122% once the target is already bleeding. Why should Blade Flurry deal 2.25 times as much damage as Glacial Hammer/Infernal Blow/Heavy Strike/etc.?

The only single target melee skills worth using are Ancestral Protector, Viper Strike, and Flicker Strike. All the others do far less single target damage, and far less AoE damage than any of the skills that already include an AoE component.

I haven't even discussed how terrible the AoE effect provided by Melee Splash is. Using a single-target skill with Melee Splash requires you to actually hit the enemy. Nearly all of the AoE skills allow you to standoff and inflict damage. As discussed with Reave, above, the AoE skills offer a huge quality of life benefit. Drop an Earthquake down and move on while the aftershock goes off; fire Sunder or Ground Slam through the entire pack from a safe distance; Reave enemies from 2 screens away; Cleave, Sweep, and Lacerate enemies from a significant range.

Reave with 0 stacks has the same radius as Melee Splash. Melee Splash can get 19% more as it levels, to bring it to 16 units, Reave can attack 4 times to bring it to 25. Vaal Reave lets you run around with 36. Reave lets you attack enemies within range of the AoE, Melee Splash forces you to run up and hit something.

In summary, the Single Target skills do awful damage. They fail as single target damage delivery mechanisms. Melee Splash is tragically bad, and does not provide a realistic method for these targets to deal effective AoE damage. The majority of skills with built in AoE effects will do more single target damage than the specialized single target skills, and will have an extra support gem to further boost damage/quality of life.

A couple of the AoE Skills are a bit pathetic too. Ground Slam, Leap Slam, Ice Crash, and Sweep are kind of bad.

Quick Takeaways

Most of the AoE skills deal far more single-target damage than the single-target skills. Standouts are: Ancestral Warchief; Sunder; Molten Strike; Blade Flurry; Earthquake, Static Strike, Lacerate, and Cleave. These AoE skills all do more single-target damage than: Vigilant Strike; Heavy Strike; Double Strike; Puncture; Frenzy; Lightning Strike; Dominating Blow; Infernal Blow; and Frost Blades.

The single-target skills using melee splash are mostly utter garbage with respect to both single-target damage and AoE damage. The exceptions are: Ancestral Protector; Viper Strike; and Flicker Strike (with 7 Frenzy Charges).

Sunder with overlapping shockwaves is downright devastating.

The average single-target damage of 6 stack Blade Flurry is exceeded only by: Molten Strike that hits the enemy with the attack and all 3 projectiles; Sunder that hits the enemy with the attack and 4 shockwaves; or 3 Ancestral Warchief or Ancestral Protector totems.

The average single-target damage of a 1 stack Blade Flurry attack (including the additional hit and damage bonus) per unit time is more than ALL single target skills except: Flicker Strike with 4+ Frenzy charges; Viper Strike; and Ancestral Protector with 2 or more totems.

Considering we are comparing the single-target skills plus a support gem, giving the AoE skills the benefit of an additional support would almost certainly make all of them better than all of the single-target skills for both single target damage and AoE damage. Ancestral Protector x3, Viper Strike, and Flicker Strike might be the only exceptions, but would still likely cluster to the bottom of the AoE skills.

Cyclone and Reave both have a rather low effective BAD for both single-target and AoE, but their continued viability in the meta is due to their quality of life benefits. Reave has an excessively large area of effect radius, and Cyclone has a decent AoE, but allows damage while moving.

Suggestions

1. Drastically increase the tooltip BAD of the following single-target skills

"

Elemental Hit (give it some in addition to the flat elemental damage to allow it to scale);
Dual Strike;
Vigilant Strike;
Heavy Strike;
Double Strike;
Puncture;
Glacial Hammer;
Frenzy; and
Wild Strike.

Bring them from the 140%-180% they are at now to 300%-450%. At that point they will be able to compete with the high end AoE skills, at least for single target damage.

2. Increase the tooltip BAD of the following AoE skills

"

Leap Slam (260%-280%);
Lacerate (~140%);
Ground Slam (250-275%);
Sweep (250-300%);
Ice Crash (~280%);
Cleave (325%)
Static Strike (200-225%)

This would bring them more in line with 2 stacks of Blade Flurry.

3. Some Fiddly Changes

"

Blade Flurry: More damage per stack is 15% (from 20%);
Viper Strike BAD is increased to ~200%;
Ancestral Protector gets 10% more attack speed as base;
Ancestral Warchief BAD is reduced to 115%

4. Fundamentally Change Melee Splash Support

Melee Splash fulfills a roughly analogous role to GMP/LMP/Pierce for projectile attacks, except that it is even more important. As bad as the single-target skills are, I would go so far as to say that, with the exception of Flicker Strike, or some bizarre Herald of Ash/Abyssal Cry build, Melee Splash is mandatory. It's also god-awful.

It must be changed.

Here is what I propose:

First of all, we give all the single target Melee skills a new keyword “Single-target.” GGG already uses it sort of like one, in certain places right now.

Next, we introduce the following support gems:

"

Melee Splash Support
Support, Melee, Attack, AoE, Single-target
Radius: 16
Mana Multiplier: 160%
Drop Level: 8
Requires Level: 8
Per 1% Quality: 0.5% increased Area of Effect radius

Single-target Melee attacks deal Splash Damage to surrounding targets
(0-29)% more Melee Splash radius
(10-19)% more Melee damage

Melee Smash Support
Support, Melee, Attack, AoE, Single-target
Radius: 22
Mana Multiplier: 175%
Drop Level 8
Requires Level: 8
Per 1% quality: 0.5% more Area of Effect radius

Single-target Melee attacks create a wave that travels forward and damages enemies
(0-19)% increased Area of Effect radius
(0-9)% more Melee Damage

Melee Surge Support
Support, Melee, Attack, Chain, Duration, Single-target
Mana Multiplier: 175%
Drop Level 8
Requires Level: 8
Per 1% quality: 1% increased Melee damage

Single-target Melee attacks create beams between the target and nearby enemies, dealing damage
Base Duration is (1-2.4) seconds
The beams cannot miss if the Melee attack hits its target
(60-41)% less Damage on beams
Chain +1 times

Close Distance Support
Attack, Movement, Melee
Mana multiplier: 120%
Per 1% quality: 0.5% increased attack speed

Supported Melee skills are channelled
Charge to a nearby monster and attack with the supported Melee Skill while channeling
Enemies encountered in your path stop your movement and are attacked instead
Increases and reductions to attack speed apply to movement speed at 50% while channelling this Skill
(1-5)% more Damage with Single-Target Melee attacks and (1-5)% increased movement speed for each stage

Melee Splash first. Does as much damage to surrounding enemies as it does to the target. Has a general ‘more Melee damage’ multiplier. Gave it 150% more of the ‘% more’ radius bonus.

Melee Smash would allow skills to function similar to Ground Slam. Project a cone in front of the player, deal damage along the cone. Smaller damage bonus than Melee Splash because it’s probably more useful for most attacks. Give any melee attack stand-off capability.

Melee Surge would function similar to Vaal Lightning Strike, dealing damage every 0.8 seconds to the target and the enemies the beams hit. Less damage bonus, because stacked with Duration could make this very powerful. If it doesn't hit a target, then the spot the player attacks fires the beams.

Melee Splash, Melee Smash and Melee Surge are intended to be exclusive, so you can’t use more than one at the same time. They all alter the mechanic of the attack to trigger on any swing, and automatically attack at maximum range when targeting enemies. Any skill supported with one of these gems would function like Sunder, Reave, Ground Slam, etc.

Close Distance is a bit of a mechanical nightmare, but hear me out. First of all, it works with all non-Movement and non-channelled Melee attacks, turning the supported skill into a Movement skill (hello Trickster!). Close Distance completely overrides the normal targeting behaviour for the attack.

While you hold attack, you channel the skill and pay mana at its normal cost, at the rate of your attack speed (as though you were attacking constantly during that time). Your character moves towards the cursor as long as you channel the skill. You move faster because your Movement speed is increased by 50% of the increases to your attack speed while channelling. If there is a monster within some area around the cursor, the character attempts to move towards the monster closest to the character, within that area. Once the character reaches normal melee range of that monster, or if the character’s path hits another monster while moving, the character proceeds to attack until the monster is dead. The character then automatically starts moving towards the next monster, following the same targeting rules. It could be used with Multistrike by giving it similar targeting rules to what Flicker Strike uses.

While channelling the character builds Close Distance stacks for each attack made, to a maximum of 10. All stacks are lost if the character hasn’t recently killed an enemy. At level 20, each stack grants 5% more damage with Single-target attacks and 5% increased movement speed.

Theoretically, Close Distance would be usable with things like Reave, Earthquake, etc., but by overriding the targeting, it would require you to run point blank to the monsters before attacking, and those skills wouldn’t benefit from the ‘% more damage’ bonus provided by the stacks.

I'll admit that I didn't read all of that, but I have a feeling a lot of the coming melee changes in future patches (discussed by Rory on the podcast this past weekend, and mentioned briefly HERE will address many of your concerns.

No.

I listened to him, and the changes don't go nearly far enough. The skills need a complete rebalancing and overhaul. Not a bit of extra weapon range and slightly better targeting while holding shift.

Many of the skills, like Heavy Strike, literally do less than 50% of the damage that a skill like Blade Flurry does. Heavy Strike hits one enemy. Blade Flurry clears half a screen. Why does Heavy Strike do less than 1/2 of the damage?

I don't want to nerf any of the skills, but in order to avoid that, and render some sort of parity, when you have a skill that does 2-3 times as much damage as another, you have to increase the damage of the lesser skill by around that much.

I have no idea how GGG let themselves get into this mess. It makes no goddamn sense.

"

RickyDMMont2ya написал:

It makes no goddamn sense.

Of course it makes sense, when Chris goes on pod casts saying they want certain skills to be crap, and that it's all part of the "circle of knowledge" to be able to tell them apart. We all know this is an excuse for introducing "new and shiny", forcing a META, instead of reworking the "old and dusty".

Sometimes they just make us go "what the actual fuck?"

Trully exceptional feedback and analysis.

Im not entirely sure about your calculations in the spreadsheet but many of those values seem indeed right. I have to say though that we must tread carefully when comparing sunder hitting with 4explosion or molten hitting with zero projectiles or the utility some of the skills offer etc. Its quite tricky incorporating for example the utility the corpse exploding the infernal blow offers or the cyclone's movement or the freezing chance glacial hammer or the minion conversion of dominating blow into pure damage values, since those skills offer something more also.

I mostly want to stand on the gem suggestions you made though. Amazing ideas honestly, would help a lot indeed. I wish they could implement any or all of them but im afraid there is to much coding need to be done. Melee smash would be the easiest one to implement and honestly it would help a lot. Very solid and helpfull suggestion.

Overall some values you are mentioning in the skill buff section are a bit off due to the reasoning that some skills offer utility too which you havent or its not possible to include/incorporate on the spreadsheet, buts its common knowledge most melee skills need to be buffed damage and utility wise.

Anyway, very good work you did man, i personally hope they rebalance/rework melee and bring it up to the other playstyles level not necessarily in damage values but in a similar power level.

For my calculations, I took the Base Attack Damage from the tooltip of the gem, at level 20.

That's the number shown in the column C, 'Gem BAD.'

This value is then multiplied by any inherent attack speed bonuses or penalties for the skills. So using Sweep take 138% x 85% for 124.2%.

The more complicated ones have slightly more in depth calculations.

Blade Flurry with 5 stacks, for example, takes BAD x More Speed x (first attack + second attack + third attack + fourth attack + fifth attack + sixth attack + attacks seven through 12)/the number of attacks.

So that's 66.4% x 165% x (1 + 1.2 + 1.4 + 1.6 + 1.8 + 2 + (2.2 x 6))/6, or 405.4%

Sunder is (BAD + (BAD x 70% x number of shockwaves)) x speed penalty.

(130.4% + (130.4% x 70% x 4)) x 85%, or 421.2%.

And so on.

I definitely agree with your sentiment, and I agree with your skill gem changes, but I'm not so sure about the support gems.

For one, I can't see a huge difference between Melee Smash and Melee Surge. I'm very skeptical about Close Distance (and I think a better name would be something like "Killing Spree" - I would have gone with Rampage if that wasn't already a mechanic).

I think that with the targeting behaviour improved (as Rory suggested will soon happen in the Lioneye's Watch Podcast), attack ranges increased to feasible levels, and damage values scaled to match the potential of AoE melee skills (as I said previously, I think you're completely correct in that department), there'd be no need to overhaul the support gems.

I mean, at least wait and see how the targeting improvements affect the viability of the skills. More interesting melee gems than "melee physical damage" and "fortify" would be great, but they should be used to change the way the game is played in a way a different skill gem can't. As you yourself admit, Melee Smash is similar to how Ground Slam works. So why not just use Ground Slam and use a gem to change its damage type/etc?

Projectile gems change how the projectiles move (Pierce, Chain, Fork), but they generally do it in a way that another skill gem wouldn't do - Siege Ballista and Shrapnel Shot both pierce, but they also have other mechanics that aren't accessible with a support gem. Melee gems should set out to do the same thing, but for melee. When you can't change a movement, there's less room for variety, but that's probably more the direction that should be headed than simply providing single target skills with the same functionality as existing AoE ones.

ST melee skills do need a bump in damage.

I recall a thread where someone was asking if it was worth ever using Dual Strike over Static Strike and well... Anyone with the numbers can see that Static always beats Dual even though Static gets free AoE without need of a threshold jewel... And Static isn't even considered a "Good" AoE melee skill...

Support gem changes and additions though...

I'm not sold on.

I mean, the gripe about "Stand off" attacks can be solved by letting Melee Splash deal the splash damage even without hitting a target. Which is a fairly popular suggestion...

The gripe about using that gem slot on melee splash... Well, I'm of the mind that really, you could probably get away with baking Melee Splash into ST melee skills. Increase area with gem levels and voila, you get some modicum of AoE, without need of a gem. Melee Splash could then just be focused around increasing melee attacks AoE's and AoE damage instead of being required for the subset of attacks that are purely ST to actually be worth something.

The end result would be, currently ST attacks will be functional, but with current AoE attacks still being more effective for AoE coverage. All with minimal effort (No need to create new supports, new skill tags and still no reliance on having 1/5 of your support gems being a "Make this skill usable" gem)

3.0:

- no melee buffs
- bow users get 'damage on full life'

i cannot even imagine just how blind devs are.. lots and lots of buffs to spells and minions (40% more damage for zombies?!) and melee gets nada


play grim dawn or wolcen if you want melee playstyle..

sad days

"

sidtherat написал:

3.0:

- no melee buffs
- bow users get 'damage on full life'

i cannot even imagine just how blind devs are.. lots and lots of buffs to spells and minions (40% more damage for zombies?!) and melee gets nada


play grim dawn or wolcen if you want melee playstyle..

sad days

now see here sir glacial hammer got something. it...wait a minute:

"has 10% increased Chill Effect at gem level 1, gaining 1% per gem level."

...holy shit that is nothing. they really are trolling the melee players.