Effective HP and Mitigation /rant

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Dawmz написал:

Honnestly, people are overreacting with this "too much damage" attitude. Yes, players are less tanky than they were in 1.3 and yes the game is harder, but you can play it without perfect gear.
I played 4 chars in tempest until now :

- A witch ball lightning, used MoM + AA + acro/phase acro + end charges for defense, worked quite well. Died at 89 in a stupidly easy 72 map with rarity tempest after stucking myself in some doodad with a huge train of mobs and panicking alt tab instead of alt f4.
- A standard cycloner 2h (etup build pretty much) with armor and 7 end charges. Seemed really tanky, never felt in danger. Died at lvl 81 also in a low lvl map because, well, vaal cycloning 150 mobs is not a good idea it seems.
- Redid the cycloner because it was fun, he's 83 I think, did maps up to 75 np
- Currently playing a scion incinerate block. Block is 49, spell block 54, hp 5.2k with MoM/EB/GR. Seems fine but there are burst damages sometimes (rakango or devourers for example). Did maps up to 77 with this guy for now.

All these chars aren't especially crazy geard, no lightning coil anywhere, no taste of haste, the most expensive item is a rathpith on the scion, which I farmed for in like 8-10 days (7ex). They sure have weaknesses, and they'll prolly die at one point in time but by recognizing what things are dangerous for your char and playing safe around those things, it's still very playable.
But yes, it's not the magic AA/EB/CoD 1.3 @ afk can't die ever.

Oh and about CI, it is certainly not useless, you can reach crazy amounts of EHP with CI (think etup's whispering ice had something like 14k ES ?), but it clearly requires very good gear to get going.

so incinerate and cyclone huh ...

Yea, cookie cutter stuff but I don't see how it has anything to do with survivability.
And to be honnest, I think my ball lightning char was more efficient overall than the incinerate one.

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2 of the builds you mentioned are cheese builds (cyclone/incinerate) and even with those you seem to have issues (dying in a low level map with an OP build, dying in an easy 72 map with ball lightning and spike damage on your incinerate).

I have issues because I fucked up lol. And these builds aren't "op", they're good sure, they're in the current meta, sure, but you can play whispering ice, flame totem, ball lightning, arc, reave, and a ton of other builds and you will be like 95% as efficient, if not better.
Like, nobody plays flameblast anymore but it's still extremely strong. It's just not in the current "hype". If you think the skill makes the build this much... well you're wrong.

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Am I saying the build should be invincible?no, but dying in a low level map with 7 end charges and armor should not be happening.

Why is that ? The level of the content is extremely relative past lvl 60-70, maps 72 can and will kill a lvl 100 char np. The difference between a lvl 75 and a lvl 100 is very thin compared to the difference between 25 and 50.

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Am I fine with difficulty and dying at higher level maps?yes, but the low level maps should scale specifically for lower level players/mediocre builds. I did superior shrine boss (piety) in a lvl 81 corrupted map np. Meanwhile devourer from 75 map 1 shot me.

You have serious issues if a devo from 75 one shot you. Devos hit me for max 50% hp when I don't block on my 0 armor / 0 eva scion, in maps with dmg mods.
This "one shot" is such bullshit tbh, everybody gets oneshotted when I read these forums. Maybe you're all playing with 2k hp max life or something because my life never dropped more than 60% in one hit since 2.0, on all chars.

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Dawmz написал:

Yea, cookie cutter stuff but I don't see how it has anything to do with survivability.
And to be honnest, I think my ball lightning char was more efficient overall than the incinerate one.

It has everything to do with survivability. If I make a dual flame totem build and focus defense only then argue that the game is fine, my argument is null since I'm playing one of the OP builds. One of the main strengths of POE was build diversity which is shrinking every patch .

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andreicde написал:

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Dawmz написал:

Yea, cookie cutter stuff but I don't see how it has anything to do with survivability.
And to be honnest, I think my ball lightning char was more efficient overall than the incinerate one.

It has everything to do with survivability. If I make a dual flame totem build and focus defense only then argue that the game is fine, my argument is null since I'm playing one of the OP builds. One of the main strengths of POE was build diversity which is shrinking every patch .

Build diversity doesn't mean you can YOLO with your build, put everything in DPS and hope for the best. PoE was always balanced around the idea that something like 70-80% of your tree points are dedicated to either travelling or defense in one way or another. This never really changed.

Every league the meta changes and certain things become better. Some past leagues have been safer, and so higher dps items were more valuable. This league there is more monster damage, and so defensive items, skills, and skill tree nodes are better. It's a shift of the metagame. The game isn't really much harder if you knew how to play properly already, it's just different. You take more life nodes. You act more scared of monsters. You play mostly as normal otherwise.

It has always been and will always be that the most important aspects of survival in hardcore are build planning, game knowledge, and good judgement. Having sick gear lets you put yourself in situations you couldn't otherwise, but if you understand the limitations of your build you can make it much, much further than a mediocre player with a lightning coil and taste of hate. This is true whether you are playing an ES caster or a tanky melee character with fortify or some 10k base armour flame totem monstrosity. Saying X defensive option is better than Y may be true, but the bottom line is that 98% of your defense in this game is planning, knowledge, and judgement, which can probably be grouped into "not being stupid".

OP seems to see the game as getting constantly harder since he started, but I think many players would say the opposite. I started in onslaught/anarchy, and I would say that the game has overall become much more forgiving over time. Trigger gems exist now (and used to work with EC, and IC had a better quality bonus). Players gain more life per level so speccing into life is less important. A shitload of amazing new uniques exist for both defenses and DPS (which also lets you spec into more defenses). A variety of mobility gems have been introduced to the game. Rogue Exiles including igna phoenix and xandro are now less scary than a lot of rares. Desync was essentially eliminated from the game for the majority of players. Masters give you decent gear reliably. Vaal skill gems provide retarded defensive bonuses for a difficult encounter. The scariest monsters in the game have been nerfed (devourers, dropbears, and rhoas long ago) such that people are now complaining about goddamn cannibals since they're the only thing left that can actually kill players if they don't move out of the way of the 10 second windup molotov.

These are substantial, tangible buffs to survivability that have occurred starting with nemesis (besides the rhoa nerf which happened before the league started), and there are also intangibles like player knowledge increasing, and you yourself becoming less stupid (hopefully). The only substantial increases in difficulty prior to 2.0 were the introduction of temp league mods to the core game, albeit in watered down form, and the removal of easy +max res. So yeah, this game was due for an increase in difficulty because the power creep was real, and unfortunately it seems to have spoiled players that have forgotten more trying times.

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Dawmz написал:

Yea, cookie cutter stuff but I don't see how it has anything to do with survivability.
And to be honnest, I think my ball lightning char was more efficient overall than the incinerate one.

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2 of the builds you mentioned are cheese builds (cyclone/incinerate) and even with those you seem to have issues (dying in a low level map with an OP build, dying in an easy 72 map with ball lightning and spike damage on your incinerate).

I have issues because I fucked up lol. And these builds aren't "op", they're good sure, they're in the current meta, sure, but you can play whispering ice, flame totem, ball lightning, arc, reave, and a ton of other builds and you will be like 95% as efficient, if not better.
Like, nobody plays flameblast anymore but it's still extremely strong. It's just not in the current "hype". If you think the skill makes the build this much... well you're wrong.

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Am I saying the build should be invincible?no, but dying in a low level map with 7 end charges and armor should not be happening.

Why is that ? The level of the content is extremely relative past lvl 60-70, maps 72 can and will kill a lvl 100 char np. The difference between a lvl 75 and a lvl 100 is very thin compared to the difference between 25 and 50.

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Am I fine with difficulty and dying at higher level maps?yes, but the low level maps should scale specifically for lower level players/mediocre builds. I did superior shrine boss (piety) in a lvl 81 corrupted map np. Meanwhile devourer from 75 map 1 shot me.

You have serious issues if a devo from 75 one shot you. Devos hit me for max 50% hp when I don't block on my 0 armor / 0 eva scion, in maps with dmg mods.
This "one shot" is such bullshit tbh, everybody gets oneshotted when I read these forums. Maybe you're all playing with 2k hp max life or something because my life never dropped more than 60% in one hit since 2.0, on all chars.

By devourer I meant the lvl 75 map devourer boss.