Nerf life nodes... while boosting base life so life itself isn't nerfed

Sounds like a lot of work to achieve similar numbers coupled with potential balance issues due to such a huge change to how life scales. A huge no to making Str that much better than the other two attributes than it already is.

Like I said in Charan's thread, the problem isn't so much how good the life nodes are, it's how many are taken compared to what other types of nodes are being taken. Fewer but stronger life nodes would free up passive points to spend on a character's unique flavor.

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VolcanoElixir написал:

A huge no to making Str that much better than the other two attributes than it already is.

Int is actually just fine currently if you're going ES; Int-stacking is good for hybrid and the key to making the OB version of CI effective. Of course, that's before a Str buff, and Dex really does get the shaft. However, I encourage you not to hate on Str just because Dex is long overdue a buff.

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VolcanoElixir написал:

Like I said in Charan's thread, the problem isn't so much how good the life nodes are, it's how many are taken compared to what other types of nodes are being taken.

The reason more are taken is because they are too damn good... and I'm very curious how you explain so many being taken if you don't agree this is the cause.

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VolcanoElixir написал:

Fewer but stronger life nodes would free up passive points to spend on a character's unique flavor.

Stronger would just make them even more mandatory if they were along your route, and increase the distance you would be willing to travel to get them.
Fewer would means some areas of the tree would be far from stronger life nodes. Those parts of the tree would become known as the parts that suck.

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VolcanoElixir написал:

Sounds like a lot of work to achieve similar numbers coupled with potential balance issues due to such a huge change to how life scales. A huge no to making Str that much better than the other two attributes than it already is.

Like I said in Charan's thread, the problem isn't so much how good the life nodes are, it's how many are taken compared to what other types of nodes are being taken. Fewer but stronger life nodes would free up passive points to spend on a character's unique flavor.

That's the problem. (Getting a lot of) Life should be a conscious choice, like how you pick % Regeneration to complement it. It shouldn't be mandatory.

Good interaction right now is between ES, Zealot's Oath and ES Cooldown. Both are choices you can make but aren't mandatory. Picking it up also has a detriment, the opportunity cost of going full ES (and CI) is losing any semblance of armour/evasion.

There needs to be a situation where getting 6,000+ life is still viable and makes you strong but does not automatically turn it into the best thing to do. Opportunity cost for choosing that -- I proposed alternative survivability nodes that diversify your choices (Critical Damage % reduction is a good example).

Yes, you would be picking defences up but rather than going all life you now are presented with the opportunity to mitigate aforementioned damage via other means. That should mean a right balance allows you to pick up more offensive nodes, I hope.

the problem at any point with % values is that if you make it too strong its overpowered if you make it too weak its worthless the balance is very hard to find

so here is what i was thinking
give the increase in life from strength and base life gain like this thread suggests
dont make the changes to the life nodes by nerfing them but instead remove a certain number to balance it out

armor
ok to start of here is a TRUE story from what happened in france once in storming a castle

5 of the best men where garbed in the most redicilous armors possible they were the only ones capable of wearing this insanely heavy armors combined with all massive shields that they were given

these 5 men single handedly stormed a castle with over 200 archers and around 150 close quarter fighters

they were succesfull in their raid and managed to take the castle they had one person carrying a big pole (your talking near tree size) and with the custom made maces that they used who could interlock into the pole they made a battering ram to take down the gate

2 of them died
1 died because of having hundreds of arrows stuck into his armor (no problem there yet) but then they managed to set him on fire
the other one broke his leg down something out of proportions of normal human ability he took
down a ramp with archers from what i remember
he got roped down by around 20 people he fell down and they took of his helmet and you can imagine what they did to his head.

ok now in PoE even with the best armor out there if your fully equiped even if someone hits you for 10 damage you will still feel 1 damage...

are you seeing my point? that damage should not even be there
so that is my opinion about armor there should be some form of flat damage reduction

dex based defence evasion it would make sense that this also works in evading elemental attacks a quick and nimble shadow should be able to roll duck or jump away at the last split second. on top of that there should be dex based defence skills that scale of of evasion to make it viable it is after all

int based defence dont really know what to say here CI builds work sow ye....

If rebalancing some numbers is "too much for GGG at the moment" then what exactly isn't too much? And why are we calling it a beta if they're not willing to make changes like experimenting with different numbers on things? Isn't that much of what the concept of beta is about?

Experimenting with different armor calculations is trivial and they should have done so already. Evasion, resistances, and overall monster damage are harder problems, but again, if you actually truly mean this is a beta, then changing up some calculations and worrying about incorrect UI later is an option.

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agbudar написал:

the problem at any point with % values is that if you make it too strong its overpowered if you make it too weak its worthless the balance is very hard to find

so here is what i was thinking
give the increase in life from strength and base life gain like this thread suggests
dont make the changes to the life nodes by nerfing them but instead remove a certain number to balance it out

Strongly disagree here, having less mandatory nodes is not as good as making nodes less mandatory.

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agbudar написал:

armor
ok to start of here is a TRUE story from what happened in france once in storming a castle

5 of the best men where garbed in the most redicilous armors possible they were the only ones capable of wearing this insanely heavy armors combined with all massive shields that they were given

these 5 men single handedly stormed a castle with over 200 archers and around 150 close quarter fighters

they were succesfull in their raid and managed to take the castle they had one person carrying a big pole (your talking near tree size) and with the custom made maces that they used who could interlock into the pole they made a battering ram to take down the gate

2 of them died
1 died because of having hundreds of arrows stuck into his armor (no problem there yet) but then they managed to set him on fire
the other one broke his leg down something out of proportions of normal human ability he took
down a ramp with archers from what i remember
he got roped down by around 20 people he fell down and they took of his helmet and you can imagine what they did to his head.

ok now in PoE even with the best armor out there if your fully equiped even if someone hits you for 10 damage you will still feel 1 damage...

are you seeing my point? that damage should not even be there
so that is my opinion about armor there should be some form of flat damage reduction

On the one hand, this isn't on topic at all; this is not an armour thread.
On the other hand, that is one badass story.
Not a bad post, but it really deserved the "new thread" button; doesn't belong here, despite its awesome.

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Mysterial написал:

If rebalancing some numbers is "too much for GGG at the moment" then what exactly isn't too much? And why are we calling it a beta if they're not willing to make changes like experimenting with different numbers on things? Isn't that much of what the concept of beta is about?

Experimenting with different armor calculations is trivial and they should have done so already. Evasion, resistances, and overall monster damage are harder problems, but again, if you actually truly mean this is a beta, then changing up some calculations and worrying about incorrect UI later is an option.

Let's put it this way: if we want a fix anytime remotely soon, it needs to be easier than testing and editing every monster table for every difficulty (on top of a passive tree redesign). GGG has their hands full with other things they prioritize higher, and for the most part I agree with their priorities: desync sucks, and trading could use some improvements. It's a small group and they can only work so fast, especially since they're also busy with maintaining the game, not merely revising it.

We could argue this more, but that would be trolling on your part. If you call your friend and he says he's busy, calling him a liar isn't likely to get you a ride. If GGG says they're too busy, you need to act as if they are. So please Cal Norton Jr. youself, as I kindly asked earlier.

Just to clarify, I invoked a little rule where we will lock any thread at the OP's request -- the OP just happened to be me. It had nothing to do with the ideas being exhausted or things getting off track. I just didn't want the thread that Carl et al. might read to be too large. ;)

Scrotie, I'm really glad you made this. I'll definitely be interested in the responses and the development of your ideas.

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Charan написал:

Just to clarify, I invoked a little rule where we will lock any thread at the OP's request -- the OP just happened to be me. It had nothing to do with the ideas being exhausted or things getting off track. I just didn't want the thread that Carl et al. might read to be too large. ;)

Scrotie, I'm really glad you made this. I'll definitely be interested in the responses and the development of your ideas.

Awesome. Troll insurance policy.

Totally understood the Carl executive summary thing from the beginning, although I really feel passionate about all this so I was a little sad to see that thread close. Might have altered the tone in the first post. Still, that's why god invented the New Thread button. No need to thank me for pressing it.

To me, this idea seems like the most simple and straightforward to implement. And because life is so important, it's not necessarily going to just make everyone pick DPS builds; high-life investment builds will still be solid choices, it's just that now getting a bit less isn't the worst idea in the world.

I still feel the other defences will need some buffing, but this is a mandatory first step. I was helping a friend with a build yesterday, and the fact that you have to build in such a way to get all the life was a real turn-off for them.

While I was like "Meh, another post about hp being mandatory" after reading I have to say "Yeah, looks(!) like a good approach to a real problem." You make your point very clear and comprehensible.
Your solution keeps the spirit of the game how it is atm, that is having to deal with massive amounts of diverse damage where life is the optimal counterweight, while providing an answer to one of the biggest problems to encounter with heavily specialized or extravagant builds, where you actually struggle with content due to an imbalance of taken hp-nodes and progress needed for leveling. The thing is, that with your changes travelling far across the skilltree might actually be rewarded instead of punished. It definitely all makes sense.
I cannot speak about balancing and how such changes would affect lategame, as I am too noobish for that. But from a mediocre players (which I claim myself to be, not good by any means, but not a total boon either) it sure looks(!) good.
Let´s see what the theorycrafters and "number crunchers" (meant positively, thx to all you guys who test, evaluate and calculate stuff so I don´t have to do it myself, you provide great knowledge) have to say...

best regards