An elegant way to balance Cast When Damage Taken

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ScrotieMcB написал:

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RogueMage написал:

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ScrotieMcB написал:

You wanted CWDT to cost mana. Why is it that you're okay with this when it's pseudorandom intervals, but suddenly not okay when it's a fixed, predictable cost?

Because mana reservation robs capacity from your shared mana reserves for its own exclusive use. That is not an as-needed cost, it is a full-time entitlement that takes priority over everything else.

Your proposal is not an as-needed cost. It is an at-random cost, which makes it a full-time entitlement which takes priority over everything else. There is no comparative advantage, only the disadvantage of being random.

No, it's not random at all, it happens only when you engage in combat! A full-time entitlement is one like aura reservation, which monopolizes mana continuously regardless of what you're doing. I can accept that you'd prefer static mana reservation over as-needed casting costs, but please don't twist these terms into an incoherent argument.

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RogueMage написал:

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ScrotieMcB написал:

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RogueMage написал:

Because mana reservation robs capacity from your shared mana reserves for its own exclusive use. That is not an as-needed cost, it is a full-time entitlement that takes priority over everything else.

Your proposal is not an as-needed cost. It is an at-random cost, which makes it a full-time entitlement which takes priority over everything else. There is no comparative advantage, only the disadvantage of being random.

No, it's not random at all, it happens only when you engage in combat! A full-time entitlement is one like aura reservation, which monopolizes mana continuously regardless of what you're doing. I can accept that you'd prefer static mana reservation over as-needed casting costs, but please don't twist these terms into an incoherent argument.

When you're not in combat, what does it matter? You only need mana for skills in combat.

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ScrotieMcB написал:

When you're not in combat, what does it matter? You only need mana for skills in combat.

Have you ever engaged in kiting? That's an example of avoiding combat in order to gain a tactical advantage. Avoiding combat can be a good way to regenerate mana or give your DoT's time to work. And if you use an active movement skill to kite, it will consume mana you could have used for other purposes. These are all dynamic choices that require tactical resource management to use effectively.

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RogueMage написал:

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ScrotieMcB написал:

When you're not in combat, what does it matter? You only need mana for skills in combat.

Have you ever engaged in kiting? That's an example of avoiding combat in order to gain a tactical advantage. Avoiding combat can be a good way to regenerate mana or give your DoT's time to work. And if you use an active movement skill to kite, it will consume mana you could have used for other purposes. These are all dynamic choices that require tactical resource management to use effectively.

This is precisely the opposite of the target demographic for trigger gems.

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ScrotieMcB написал:

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RogueMage написал:

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ScrotieMcB написал:

When you're not in combat, what does it matter? You only need mana for skills in combat.

Have you ever engaged in kiting? That's an example of avoiding combat in order to gain a tactical advantage. Avoiding combat can be a good way to regenerate mana or give your DoT's time to work. And if you use an active movement skill to kite, it will consume mana you could have used for other purposes. These are all dynamic choices that require tactical resource management to use effectively.

This is precisely the opposite of the target demographic for trigger gems.

Yes, and that's why I want GGG to change Cast when Damage Taken from a passive no-brainer into a skill that requires active resource management.

So... who is currently an owner of a level 20 CWDT gem? Just curious since it is obvious we've really tested this gem to prove that without a doubt it is completely unfair as-is...

Oh wait...

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RogueMage написал:

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ScrotieMcB написал:

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RogueMage написал:

Have you ever engaged in kiting? That's an example of avoiding combat in order to gain a tactical advantage. Avoiding combat can be a good way to regenerate mana or give your DoT's time to work. And if you use an active movement skill to kite, it will consume mana you could have used for other purposes. These are all dynamic choices that require tactical resource management to use effectively.

This is precisely the opposite of the target demographic for trigger gems.

Yes, and that's why I want GGG to change Cast when Damage Taken from a passive no-brainer into a skill that requires active resource management.

Not going to happen, and actually shouldn't happen. It's anathema to the core concept behind having something "like little computer programs on your character" for those who "have trouble managing more than a just a few simple attacks at once." That's the core reason behind the inclusion of these gems — and those words are straight out of Chris Wilson's mouth (7:30).

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ggnorekthx написал:

So... who is currently an owner of a level 20 CWDT gem? Just curious since it is obvious we've really tested this gem to prove that without a doubt it is completely unfair as-is...

Oh wait...

I think you have totally missed the point. No clue how good a level 20 CWDT is for offensive use but it is extremely stupid that your char casts every single relevant defensive spell in the game whenever you take damage. For free. Without casting animations.

Just to clarify, so far:

We have everyone agreeing that the CWDT is at the moment a no drawback skill, which in addition has very little benefit to levelling it up for the main use it is currently being used for.

The issue is primarily that for no cost besides the damage being taken, you cast skills that only have reduced damage output, while most of the skills supported by this aren't being used for damage dealing capabilities.

We have a few proposed solutions for how to fix this, centred around either an internal cooldown similar to things like flickerstrike (but without the consume charges), mana reservation or mana cost.


There is the internal cooldown: This means that the active skills linked would only cast once every 'x' seconds. Lets say 4 for this. This means those skills which you normally wouldn't cast very often anyway, does not really matter. Things like enduring cry being cast every 4 seconds doesn't matter too much. But how strict is the timer? Do we only look at damage being taken after the 4 seconds is reached? How does this effect spells being used, for example things like curses, FP, Ice Nova, spark, shock nova, when does this start to be detrimental such that you don't want to use it? I assume that the cooldown would be one of the things decreased by levelling it up

There is the flat reservation based on the skill cost: This has the side effec that its easier to know how much it costs, but it also just becomes a number based game. It would need a reasonable mana multiplier on it for the convienience, or else its still a no brainer. This is a huge buff to blood magic, blood magic support or high mana builds, interesting in that its the opposite of the % reservation of aura change which effects those above more significantly. As you level it up I assume that the multiplier would decrease, to make it more manageable at high levels and encourage levelling it.

There is the 'uses mana' when cast: This has the opposite side effect of being something you can't control. Assuming unlimited defenses, you could have an entire EB mana pool disappear in seconds to lots of small hits. Imagine being swarmed by monkeys, you could burn all your resource, not be able to afford an AoE, and have trouble. This, while having I feel the correct side effect, has a huge issue with it being overdone. You will have the builds that use blood magic support love this, because their mana pool doesn't matter. Builds using blood magic or low mana+leech will probably be unable to use this ever. I assume as you level it up the amount of mana cost multiplier goes down to make it less 'ouch' in use?



For all of the three options, remember that we are looking for a REASON to level it beyond level 1, while also introducing an inherent 'disadvantage', something which makes it more of a decision, a tradeoff, while at the moment there is no reason NOT to put it on something (beyond link usage).

While its great to discuss the difference between 'reservation' and 'use per skill' of mana, we also have to be looking into what effect it has on levelling up the skill gem.




Personally I feel that the gem is backwards. You want the higher the level to have the lower activation cost. Why? Because when you USE the skill, you want it being used as often as possible.

If it went from 2k damage taken to activate at level 1, to 400 damage at level 20, that would mean that when you first equip it, you will very occasionally cast your enduring cry. When you get that thing maxed, your enduring cry will just be loving you and being used a lot.

This means that the level 1 gem can still be valuable, but you definitely gain a benefit from levelling it up. Its a simple solution, there is still no mana management involved, but it also gives you a reason to WANT it to be levelled up, as it inherently gets 'better' as it does.


Lets focus on the issue, why would you level up a gem that makes you use a skill less. Its like levelling up a dps skill like flcker strike if it slowly added a bigger and bigger cooldown

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ggnorekthx написал:

So... who is currently an owner of a level 20 CWDT gem? Just curious since it is obvious we've really tested this gem to prove that without a doubt it is completely unfair as-is...

Oh wait...

I see what you did there... XD

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kruemel2222 написал:

I think you have totally missed the point. No clue how good a level 20 CWDT is for offensive use but it is extremely stupid that your char casts every single relevant defensive spell in the game whenever you take damage. For free. Without casting animations.

It's not fun when you have to perma cast youe Endurance Charges per hand. In the past My Melee Marauder basicly spent it's half time during fighting with casting Warlords Mark, Decoy Totem and Enduring Cry, took forever, was not fun and was the cause why I abandoned this guy. He's not a caster!
Now it finaly makes fun again to play a Melee Marauder and I want to have fun in the game, PoE is frustrating enough imho. Play solo, play self found and you know what I mean.
GGG must stop to listen to the 1% of pro gamers that abuse every useful skill in a way that GGG forces the skill to be nerfed. This affects us normal players that don't spent 24/7 in gaming.
First, they nerfed my beloved Bear Traps twice, then the 60% Aura stuff (not a big disadvantage in partys but again a big soloplay nerf) and now they should instantly nerf a little support gem that is not even usable for every build or every class (Ranged or dodge/evasion class with cast on damage taken? lol ) and on top of that can't be max leveled mostly to stay useful at all?

GGG, please keeep this skill as it is, don't kill again some fun out of the game. PoE is hard enough imho.