Mana Leech - overnerfed?

So a typical melee char with 500 max mana will be able to leech between 100 and 10 mana/sec after the changes, depending on number of targets.
Even with considerable investment, say 1000 max mana and 100% increased leech rate the mana gain is 40 mana/sec against a single target, that can go up to 240-280/sec with adds.

Some investment required seems reasonable, running physical attacks off of a single affix of 2% mana leech seemed way too easy. My problem is with unreliability - the single target value is not going to be enough to sustain attacks, unless the player leaves a bigger portion of the mana pool unreserved and uses potions or alternates between attacking packs and high hp targets (if possible).
The opportunity cost of not going Blood Magic (gem or keystone) seems way too high now.

I suggest the Base Mana Leech Rate of 2% maximum mana per second to be raised. Forcing players to go oom on bosses is not a fun way of increasing boss difficulty.

It's per hit :)
stop whining

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Ceratoidei написал:

It's per hit :)
stop whining

I'm not whining. Per hit sounds more reasonable. Would have been nice of you to provide a source though, everyone is talking about per target limits.
In this case I don't understand how this change is supposed to make bosses harder, We'll still be able to cap life leech vs single target after a second of ramp up time.

Link to reddit is available in the leech manifesto

No legacy leech mods, leech is calculated per hit and so on... they should update the manifesto

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Zed_ написал:

We'll still be able to cap life leech vs single target after a second of ramp up time.

Yes, if you do enough damage, attack fast enough and have enough leech percentage, you will be able to do the same as before, just not so easily.

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raics написал:

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Zed_ написал:

We'll still be able to cap life leech vs single target after a second of ramp up time.

Yes, if you do enough damage, attack fast enough and have enough leech percentage, you will be able to do the same as before, just not so easily.

Yes, problem is that if you attack very fast you consume more mana... seems a vicious circle.

Trying today with flicker+multistrike and it cannot be sustained without instant leech (=acuity), even considering the new cap of mana leech (20% instead of actual 12.5%).

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Ceratoidei написал:

It's per hit :)
stop whining

Which is just stupid design as well; "Hey guys, lets make it so there's even less incentive to use slower-but-heavier-hitting weapons. I mean, it's not like faster weapons are already better in almost every other regard, lets take away one of the few mechanics that treats fast and slow attacks equally and instead bias it in favor of high attack speed, that'll sure help build diversity!'


There's already mechanics that provide better sustain for fast attacks: life/mana gain on hit (and vaal pact, which essentially turns life leech into life gain on hit). There's absolutely no need to go and make leech work better for faster attacks than slower ones as well.

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Vipermagi написал:

Attack Speed doesn't actually matter one bit when it comes to how much you Leech (either you Leech 5 Mana 10 times per second, or 10 Mana 5 times per second, the result is exactly the same), but it does cost more Mana. Leech still favours Damage over Attack Speed.

The reason higher Attack Speeds can Leech more is because they flat-out deal more Damage per Second, which is surprisingly enough actually relevant to a modifier that relies on Damage output.
Because faster builds deal more Damage, the above example is never actually the case - a faster weapon would Leech 6 or 7 Mana somewhere around 900 times per second, whereas a slower weapon Leeches maybe 13 Mana up to 200 times per second.

It doesn't matter with regards to the raw amount of health you leech, but it does matter a whole hell of a lot to how rapidly you leech with the changes, even if the dps when using the fast and slow weapons are the same. If you attack once per second for 1200 damage with 5% leech and 500 health, compared to attacking four times per second for 300 damage with the same leech and health, the former will produce 60 health over the course of 6 seconds. The latter will provide the same 60 health, but over the course of 1.5 seconds

It's a fairly dramatic difference, one that favors attack speed quite heavily... there's a reason people use eternal flasks over the slower-but-higher-total divine flasks when they're not using instant affixes, it's because recovery speed matters.