Daggers have been over nerfed over the years.They have become the worst weapon that crits
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It's been a while since everyone and his mother was asking for dagger nerfs, which to a point was justified (or not since daggers are ONLY meant for crit builds AND they are the hardest one handers to roll due to the fact that they also spawn caster mods)
Running PoE builder extensively i realised that both claws and especially Rapiers surpass greatly the DPS of daggers, given they have the same DPS, even on full crit builds. This is rediculous because: 1) Daggers are supposed to be the best crit weapons 2) They are the hardest to roll due to the fact they also roll caster mods 3) Both Claws and Rapiers can potentially reach higher base DPS which increase the difference even more 4) Both Claws and Rapiers are INFINTELY better on non crit or medium crit builds 5) Bothe have better utility (higher attack speed, leech, charge steal etc.) 6) Possibly both have better unique weapons available to use After all the nerfs i think it's time to rebuff daggers. If anything they should provide their old Critical Chance and especially multiplier. Nowdays with all the flasks etc. base crit chance does not even matter all that much anymore which used to be the holy grail of DPS. That's one of the main reasons they have become shit tier. Not to mention that since life is far better than ES nowdays, it makes even more unfair for weapons that have their best damage passives so far north east. Edit: I am adding here my post with all the data and the analysis that prove my point
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Ok, mega post follows with all the data. It is a good one, it worths your time if you are interested in the topic.
Starting i am comparing the best of their kind. Ambusher, imperial claw and Jewel Foil. Let's start with the Dedicated Passives: DAGGERS (15 passives) Increased Physical Damage: 136% Increased Attack Speed: 19% Increased Critical Chance: 210% + 30% Implicit = 240% Increased Critical Multiplier: 84% Increased Accuracy: 20% Special Attributes: Poison CLAWS (18 Passives) Increased Physical Damage: 190% Increased Attack Speed: 33% Increased Critical Chance: 190% Increased Critical Multiplier: 75% Increased Accuracy: 40% Special Attributes: Poison, Life+Mana Leech, Life leech per second, Charge Stealing SWORDS (16 passives) Increased Physical Damage: 197% (including that +20 strength) Increased Attack Speed: 38% Increased Critical Chance: 130% Increased Critical Multiplier: 54% + 25% implicit = 79% Increased Accuracy: 200 Flat (in case you are wondering this is by far the strongest) Special Attributes: Poison, Bleed, Block Knowing that critical chance is BY far the worst stat to increase your damage, and attack speed BY FAR the best, it is pretty clear just by looking at them how inferio dagger passives are. They are also less overall, but the actuall damage numbers will follow. Moving to the actual Base DPS of each weapon: AMBUSHER Exactly Mid Roll: 299.3 DPS Top Roll: 610.2 DPS IMERIAL CLAW Exactly Mid Roll: 312.5 DPS Top Roll: 637.4 DPS JEWEL FOIL Exactly Mid Roll: 317.1 DPS Top Roll: 644.5 DPS Now lets move to the actual damage output. For testing in PoB, for all three versions the same lv95 Berseker was used, using exactly the same Gear(except the weapon of course) and Support Gems, changing only the weapon passives and -if there there were passives to spare, i picked up the most efficient nearby ones. All versions had exactly the same defenses and HP (claw version just ended up with 100 less). Also note that the build is VERY HEAVY crit focused, meaning it basically grabs every crit passive possible, which is SUPPOSED to benefit daggers the most. Also the damage numbers are fully buffed, including flasks (a Diamond Flask included) and the savage hit. Results: Actual Damage Output(full buffed with flasks): DAGGER Mid Rolled: 5 195 171.4 DPS Top Rolled: 9 672 407.5 DPS CLAW Mid Rolled: 6 132 296.3 DPS Top Rolled: 11 493 867.3 DPS SWORD Mid Rolled: 6 334 882.5 DPS Top Rolled: 11 704 719.5 DPS Ok now you might say that i am being unfair. Using a Diamond flask offsets the advantage of daggers, while all the other flask buffs will benefit more claws and swords which have higher base DPS and passives. Let's take a look at the damage numbers WITHOUT flasks/savage hit. Damage Output (no flasks/savage hit): DAGGER Mid Rolled: 2 363 163.1 DPS CLAW Mid Rolled: 2 700 163.1 DPS SWORD Mid Rolled: 2 681 350.0 DPS Additional information: The whole situation was more beneficial to daggers. Since a berseker was used, there was no need to spend passives on leech, which would be at least 4, giving another advantage to claws. Also as i said above, the same support gems were used. Foils with their bleed passives could effectively use bloodlust which is the strongest melee gem there is, far surpassing the claw and the dagger in DPS. Additional Testing with same DPS weapons as a base that i did later I will bump the thread a final PoB testing i did, just to give (hopefully) a bit of attention to the topic to the devs. This time i tested optimised trees with the same level/gear/defenses with a dagger/claw/foil that HAVE THE SAME DPS. Not similarly ROLLED as i did before, but with the same DPS, as if they had the same base damage. So i compared an Ambusher, Imperial Claw, Jewel Foil all with 299.5 DPS. Results (fully Buffed): Dagger: 4 907 209.5 DPS Claw: 5 759 345.4 DPS Foil: 5 927 299.0 DPS Even when all weapons have the same base DPS, daggers are STILL over 15% weaker. To make matters worse, in order for the dagger to reach the DPS of the Foil (and it still it was a tiny bit lower), i had to add 18% increased attack speed, 84% increased critical multiplier and 50% increased critical chance. And i will repeat that this is a heavy crit build that FAVOURS a high crit weapon. Add to that the less utility of daggers (only poison), and the fact that especially swords have even more passives in the duelist area that also provide leech, and i rest my case. No reason to use a dagger as a melee player. CONCLUSION It is clear, that even on a heavy crit build which benefits daggers the most, they are actually left to dust. Both Claws and Swords ended up dealing around 20% MORE damage than daggers in all versions which is H U G E. Worse than i expected. Mid weapon, Top weapon, buffed, unbuffed - any version. If the Build was not as focused on crit, or if not a berseker was used the damage diffence would be FAR BIGGER. SUGGESTIONS - GOALS The goal ideally is in a so heavy crit leaning build, daggers to surpass Claws and Swords, or at least to provide the same DPS with more consistent crit. Critical Chance is Shit. No other way to put it. Dagger passives have pathetic attack speed, and roughly the same multiplier as swords and claws. These are the 2 main issues that have to be fixed. I have 2 -very easy to implement- suggestions: 1) Add 3 Dagger Passives that connect Adder's Touch with Flaying with one Notable in between, the same way Claws of the Magpie and Soul Raker are connected in the claw wheel. And they have to be powerfull. From my testing, in order for Daggers to reach (REACH, not surpas) the DPS of daggers and claws i had to add 84% multiplier and 18% attack speed, without taking into consideration that i would lose at least 2 damage passives if the ones i suggest were added (roughly 28% physical damage lost). Thus the passives should provide more than 20% attack speed and over 100% multiplier. So the actual numbers -2 Passives granting 30% multiplier + 5% Increased Attack Speed -1 Notable between them that adds 60% multiplier + 10% Attack Speed Note: As of Further testing this won't be nearly enough Beleive me, even with these the damage would be comparable. I do not think it would even surpass the claw and sword version, or if it will, it will be by a tiny bit. 2) Buff the Base DPS of daggers to be the same as Claws and Foils. Do not add Passives, but buff/add attack speed to them to be around 35% in total instead of this pathetic 19%, possibly buff very slightly the multiplier the existing passives provide as well, being 100 instead of 84. Note: As of further testing this also won't be nearly enough. Even if the base is buffed to provide the same DPS, the passives will need around 20% attack speed + 90% multiplier to match/slightly surpass foils/claws. Both suggestions are very easy to implement. They will just put daggers on par damage wise with claws and foils, and there is absolutely no way that they will threaten them in a low/no crit build. The passives alone do not allow it since they provide around 60% less physical damage. PS: If anyone wants me to recreate the builds on PoB and post the pastebins, i can do it. Последняя редакция: astraph#3219. Время: 15 нояб. 2017 г., 16:17:50 Last bumped17 нояб. 2017 г., 05:42:09
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" Wrong, i doubt you will ever find statement like this from GiGiGi. Daggers are just more suited to go crit as they have higher base crit and implicit crit mode. " True, and majority of caster builds still use Daggers as they are capable of Shield Charge / Whirling Blades with it. Similar to scepters, but for crit based builds. " Probably true after "balancing" one hand weapon dmg. Daggers are behind in both speed, pure dmg rolls and overall implicit usefulness when rolled perfectly towards specific builds. " Unfortunately unique design is preferring niche/build specific funky items rather than blunt best in slot weapons towards end game. Completely different approach than for 2H weapons where Skyforge & Disfavor exists To sump it up, you are right. After 1H dmg buffs across the board, it gave other weapon types more room to shine due to utility they bring. global crit change is not that interesting. Crit Multi was nerfed so implicit Foil crit multi is more significant. As there are still ways how to leech through encounters, Claw is preferred weapon for that style of play. Yet it is still easy to clear everything with just Blade Flurry and Bino's for 1c I represent only myself, my own thought and believes. I am individual, not a representative of the community.
I am not speaking on behalf of someone else and I don't get offended by things that have nothing to do with me. 3.13 was the golden age. |
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Thanks for your feedback. When i said "the best crit weapons", i meant that daggers historically had the higher crit base, highest crit chance/multiplier passives and the lowest overall damage, attack speed utility compared to claws and foils. Add the fact they are the hardest to roll --> thus i beleive they should shine and outperform the other one handers on full crit builds. Otherwise i do not see their purpose for melee play. Even more so nowdays that CI is very unfriedly to melee and you have to go up there to pick dagger passives.
The same case could be made for Crit Staves vs Swords etc. but i am not very experienced on the matter to make that case. But you are also right that you can do very well with justa Bino's and Blade Flurry. I do not think they are underpowered overall. I think that in terms of balance they are inferior to other options, losing their overall purpose. |
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daggers have very similar flat pdps values to swords and maces
AND they have crit real crit-only weapon is a wand. it has like ~200pdps lower top end than all other 1h weapons utility you say? daggers utility is damage and crit. crit gives everything in this game - status aliments, maims, stuns, flask charges, everyf...thing swords on the other hand have.. bleeds. or rather miniscule chance to bleed with even less effective dps value so please, get your facts right and stop asking for buffs to things that are still BETTER to axes, swords and maces oh and that unique you talk about. Bisco's exist. i know it is a 1c item. but it is perfectly capable of running circles around 1h swords and maces. btw - sceptres are more difficult to roll |
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The title is misleading because it has a limit of 100 characters. However what the fuck are you talking about? If you read the post, it is clear that i am talking about CRIT builds and i am comparing them to other CRIT weapons meaning claws and foils. What the fuck have axes to do about the topic? If daggers outperformed axes on a Resolute Technique build, please be my guest and address the issue. Not to mention that axes, maces etc. are an entirely different category of weapons that use other skills etc.
As for my facts... They are double triple QUADRUPLED checked. Since i am talking about crit, ALL these weapons have this bonuses (freeze shock etc.). It is quite clear you do not have much experience with crit. This "very similar" flat DPS you talk about, can result in HUGE damage differences. Also it's not just the base DPS, its the weapon specific passives as well. I am a standard player. I own and have owned mirrored shit. Even on a dedicated VERY HEAVY crit based build, a mirrored tiered claw will do slightly more damage than a dagger while having leech etc. A mirrored tier Jweel Foil results in OVER 2 MILLION DPS increase than a mirrored tier dagger, and i repeat on a VERY HEAVY CRIT BUILD which is supposed to be dagger's thing. Swords also have bleed which makes far easier the use of "bloodlust" which is the strongest melee gem in the game. And as a bonus BOTH claws and Foils will absolutely destroy a dagger on a non crit/medium crit buid. I do not come up with these numbers out of my ass. I have borrowed a mirrored claw. I also ran the numbers on the exact same build(just changing the weapon passives) on PoE builder a thousand times. It is not even close. And daggers are FAR HARDER to roll than AT LEAST claws and Foils. They are outperformed in every way thus they lose their purpose. THat was the point of the thread. Still they are good, not arguing over that. Последняя редакция: astraph#3219. Время: 8 нояб. 2017 г., 12:29:40
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The only thing that i find sad is that all weapon of the same family are always the same. Like all wands have high crit, bad damage, spell dmg implicit.
i would find it exciting if there where some wands more leaning towards casting and some more towards attacking with different explicits and different mod pools. Same with daggers and scepters. |
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Maybe better corruption on dagger could "swing" it back into favor of a dagger when comparing some BIS items or even average vaaled items.
Right now you basically want culling or you do not touch implicit on daggers. Having possibility of better corruption could be interesting - altho it would again increase the randomness of dagger crafting :) And again, best vaaling option would be some unique dagger, like Bino. Anyway, i always thought dagger should have higher dmg range (low bottom, high highend) to be kinda like a lighting spells which can hit for 1 or over 9000. It is still kinda the case, but all the additive dmg and since the crafting table mods are same in both weapons, it is not exactly the case with 4 good affixes. What i think is kinda weak right now are dagger passives. Swords are more versatile, support bleed, poison, block. But nobody will care or change anything. As I mentioned, there is Blade Flurry, there is Bino, daggers are OK in people's view. Maybe there is another spin that GiGiGi planned for daggers and never delivered or there is some hidden meta which is not explored or exploited. I represent only myself, my own thought and believes. I am individual, not a representative of the community.
I am not speaking on behalf of someone else and I don't get offended by things that have nothing to do with me. 3.13 was the golden age. |
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Daggers need to wait roughly four years.
Just like claws did, damn this community forgets rapidly :) And daggers are still the most efficient crit scaling, so if your looking for "easy crit" they win against all other weapons, just to say that they already serve a purpose. Peace, -Boem- Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes
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I would agree with Boem but these days the easy crit scaling is called Diamond Flask. +The Absurd attack speed scaling also made high crit chance kinda of obsoelete. Even things like Starforge can have reliable crit when needed. I beleive my point still stands.
I do remember when people thought claws were shit as well. However in 1.1 (i think) when leech was given the finger and was nerfed, claws were considered GG. Same as when Istant leech got 40% effetiveness. The problem is that other sources of leech then made THEM lose their purpose shortly after that, so they needed to be rebalanced again. And they did. The same thing i am asking about daggers. The weakest thing about daggers as Marxone said are possibly the passives. It is fine they have lower base DPS. They should. But even as a crit specific weapon they do not have the potential to outperform other dex weapons which are better in general terms (base damage, stronger passives, better secondary effects). And as Serge said all weapons are very similar and uninteresting as well, but that's another topic and it used to be worse in the past actually. Последняя редакция: astraph#3219. Время: 9 нояб. 2017 г., 03:42:34
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Ok, mega post follows with all the data. It is a good one, it worths your time if you are interested in the topic.
Starting i am comparing the best of their kind. Ambusher, imperial claw and Jewel Foil. Let's start with the Dedicated Passives: DAGGERS (15 passives) Increased Physical Damage: 136% Increased Attack Speed: 19% Increased Critical Chance: 210% + 30% Implicit = 240% Increased Critical Multiplier: 84% Increased Accuracy: 20% Special Attributes: Poison CLAWS (18 Passives) Increased Physical Damage: 190% Increased Attack Speed: 33% Increased Critical Chance: 190% Increased Critical Multiplier: 75% Increased Accuracy: 40% Special Attributes: Poison, Life+Mana Leech, Life leech per second, Charge Stealing SWORDS (16 passives) Increased Physical Damage: 197% (including that +20 strength) Increased Attack Speed: 38% Increased Critical Chance: 130% Increased Critical Multiplier: 54% + 25% implicit = 79% Increased Accuracy: 200 Flat (in case you are wondering this is by far the strongest) Special Attributes: Poison, Bleed, Block Knowing that critical chance is BY far the worst stat to increase your damage, and attack speed BY FAR the best, it is pretty clear just by looking at them how inferio dagger passives are. They are also less overall, but the actuall damage numbers will follow. Moving to the actual Base DPS of each weapon: AMBUSHER Exactly Mid Roll: 299.3 DPS Top Roll: 610.2 DPS IMERIAL CLAW Exactly Mid Roll: 312.5 DPS Top Roll: 637.4 DPS JEWEL FOIL Exactly Mid Roll: 317.1 DPS Top Roll: 644.5 DPS Now lets move to the actual damage output. For testing in PoB, for all three versions the same lv95 Berseker was used, using exactly the same Gear(except the weapon of course) and Support Gems, changing only the weapon passives and -if there there were passives to spare, i picked up the most efficient nearby ones. All versions had exactly the same defenses and HP (claw version just ended up with 100 less). Also note that the build is VERY HEAVY crit focused, meaning it basically grabs every crit passive possible, which is SUPPOSED to benefit daggers the most. Also the damage numbers are fully buffed, including flasks (a Diamond Flask included) and the savage hit. Results: Actual Damage Output(full buffed with flasks): DAGGER Mid Rolled: 5 195 171.4 DPS Top Rolled: 9 672 407.5 DPS CLAW Mid Rolled: 6 132 296.3 DPS Top Rolled: 11 493 867.3 DPS SWORD Mid Rolled: 6 334 882.5 DPS Top Rolled: 11 704 719.5 DPS Ok now you might say that i am being unfair. Using a Diamond flask offsets the advantage of daggers, while all the other flask buffs will benefit more claws and swords which have higher base DPS and passives. Let's take a look at the damage numbers WITHOUT flasks/savage hit. Damage Output (no flasks/savage hit): DAGGER Mid Rolled: 2 363 163.1 DPS CLAW Mid Rolled: 2 700 163.1 DPS SWORD Mid Rolled: 2 681 350.0 DPS Additional information: The whole situation was more beneficial to daggers. Since a berseker was used, there was no need to spend passives on leech, which would be at least 4, giving another advantage to claws. Also as i said above, the same support gems were used. Foils with their bleed passives could effectively use bloodlust which is the strongest melee gem there is, far surpassing the claw and the dagger in DPS. CONCLUSION It is clear, that even on a heavy crit build which benefits daggers the most, they are actually left to dust. Both Claws and Swords ended up dealing around 20% MORE damage than daggers in all versions which is H U G E. Worse than i expected. Mid weapon, Top weapon, buffed, unbuffed - any version. If the Build was not as focused on crit, or if not a berseker was used the damage diffence would be FAR BIGGER. SUGGESTIONS - GOALS The goal ideally is in a so heavy crit leaning build, daggers to surpass Claws and Swords, or at least to provide the same DPS with more consistent crit. Critical Chance is Shit. No other way to put it. Dagger passives have pathetic attack speed, and roughly the same multiplier as swords and claws. These are the 2 main issues that have to be fixed. I have 2 -very easy to implement- suggestions: 1) Add 3 Dagger Passives that connect Adder's Touch with Flaying with one Notable in between, the same way Claws of the Magpie and Soul Raker are connected in the claw wheel. And they have to be powerfull. From my testing, in order for Daggers to reach (REACH, not surpas) the DPS of daggers and claws i had to add 84% multiplier and 18% attack speed, without taking into consideration that i would lose at least 2 damage passives if the ones i suggest were added (roughly 28% physical damage lost). Thus the passives should provide more than 20% attack speed and over 100% multiplier. So the actual numbers -2 Passives granting 30% multiplier + 5% Increased Attack Speed -1 Notable between them that adds 60% multiplier + 10% Attack Speed Beleive me, even with these the damage would be comparable. I do not think it would even surpass the claw and sword version, or if it will, it will be by a tiny bit. 2) Buff the Base DPS of daggers to be the same as Claws and Foils. Do not add Passives, but buff/add attack speed to them to be around 35% in total instead of this pathetic 19%, possibly buff very slightly the multiplier the existing passives provide as well, being 100 instead of 84. Both suggestions are very easy to implement. They will just put daggers on par damage wise with claws and foils, and there is absolutely no way that they will threaten them in a low/no crit build. The passives alone do not allow it since they provide around 60% less physical damage. PS: If anyone wants me to recreate the builds on PoB and post the pastebins, i can do it. Последняя редакция: astraph#3219. Время: 9 нояб. 2017 г., 13:13:05
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