I don't understand why they nerfed Iron Reflex this way

It almost doesn't affect CI build that can just get "fee armor" but prevent dex based build to go armor (I mean, you can but your shit load of dexterity become useless).

I already felt like dexterity is a weak stat but why put that keystone in the dex side of the tree if it's just "meh" for them.

Evasion is only realy good for health based range character because of Ondar's Guile vs reflect.

What I would have done is "convert all evasion into armor, armor is only affected by evasion bonus (including Determination)", it seams more logical to me. It would make Determination and Body&Soul clusters less efficient and prevent CI user to use Grace/Determination to get really good armor.

I don't agree, it balances armor based on evasion with pure armor.

CI builds (you should say ES builds) can use IR yes, but Evasion or armor builds can also use CI/ES so that normal I think.

Your dex is not useless, you need it for gear and skills.

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Papyrazzi написал:

Ondar's Guile vs reflect.

Not so much anymore.

Reflect now uses your own accuracy. Which means that if you have very high dexterity and accuracy or you're using RT/Lioneye's it's not doing quite as much as you'd hope ( or absolutely nothing at all if you can't miss ).

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Your dex is not useless, you need it for gear and skills.

Yes, you need 150~ dex to be able to use every green skill or Evasion gear, stats that you can pretty much have if you go to IR from the middle or the right side. What i meant, is the Dex after 150~ is useless compared to other stats, you only gain a bit of accuracy vs life + damage for strenght and mana + ES for int.

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CI builds (you should say ES builds) can use IR yes, but Evasion or armor builds can also use CI/ES so that normal I think.

That doesn't make much sense, there is no such thing as armor build that use CI (well there is one, CI that take Iron reflex, exactly the thing that cause problem to me).

Hybrid build aren't really viable atm (Low life doesn't count, also Aegis aurora build)

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I don't agree, it balances armor based on evasion with pure armor.

I agree it make them equal in term of armor, but one can take strengh to get life when the other only have his useless dex (sorry but the bonus to accuracy isn't enough).
Also pure armor based char can take iron reflex passing by a few dex nods threw the south and get free armor with grace.

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Not so much anymore.

Reflect now uses your own accuracy. Which means that if you have very high dexterity and accuracy or you're using RT/Lioneye's it's not doing quite as much as you'd hope ( or absolutely nothing at all if you can't miss ).

Ondar's Guile didn't worked before the change against reflect so even if it now use your own accuracy it's still better than before.
If you use RT or Lioneye's you have to go armor but it's not like those two weren't considered OP before.

A typical RT bow build skip the Dex side ASAP to get to the marauder/templar side.

@OP: I don't understand why Iron Reflexes exists. At all. If I was designing it, it would convert all Evasion Rating into Accuracy Rating, not Armour (and of course have a different name). Would still be interesting (especially for crit melee builds), but not nearly the always-take that it is now.

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Gobla написал:

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Papyrazzi написал:

Ondar's Guile vs reflect.

Not so much anymore.

Reflect now uses your own accuracy. Which means that if you have very high dexterity and accuracy or you're using RT/Lioneye's it's not doing quite as much as you'd hope ( or absolutely nothing at all if you can't miss ).

FYI: As a rule of thumb, 94% statsheet chance to hit vs 48% statsheet chance to evade is about 12% natural evade chance, or 24% with Ondar's Guile; not OP or anything, but not worthless either. 90% statsheet chance to hit would be more like 19%, bumped to 38%.

So while I agree "not so much," it's still worth taking, if for reflect alone.

The one thing I really like about this change is that it gives LG a stealth drawback for evasion-based builds; even more so if they got rid of IR like they really should.

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ScrotieMcB написал:

FYI: As a rule of thumb, 94% statsheet chance to hit vs 48% statsheet chance to evade is about 12% natural evade chance, or 24% with Ondar's Guile; not OP or anything, but not worthless either.

FYI: With this kind of reflect dodge u can oneshot yourself 88% / 76% of the time in double reflect scenarios on certain DPS thresholds (sometimes even single reflect scenarios on even higher DPS thresholds). If dodge is creating such large windows of vunerability then yes - it IS still worthless (from HC perspective at least)
SC is not serious enough to be taken into consideration while balancing the game

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FYI: As a rule of thumb, 94% statsheet chance to hit vs 48% statsheet chance to evade is about 12% natural evade chance, or 24% with Ondar's Guile; not OP or anything, but not worthless either. 90% statsheet chance to hit would be more like 19%, bumped to 38%.

I'm interested to know how much accuracy and Evasion you have.

Also what is the accuracy range you need in really hight level zone.

Maths says 20k evasion is 43% to evade on 1200 accuracy (90% chance to hit for one of my lvl 70 char) 86% with Ondar's Guile.

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Papyrazzi написал:

I'm interested to know how much accuracy and Evasion you have.

5576 accuracy, 16002 evasion @ level 73

My proposal on Iron Reflexes:

No longer converts base EV to AR.
Now Causes your bonus EV from Dex to be added to your Ar.

What this would mean (for example, is if you have +100% EV from nodes and +50% EV from Dex with 1000 base Ev on gear you would have after Iron Reflexes

500 AR (possible to be multiplied) 2000 EV

From 2500 EV

This gives EV builds a fallback amount of Armour, while retaining their dodgey playstyle. And you can tell it's a good compromise because nobody's happy. Also because you'll have a decent chunk of armour on a good evade rate.

To summarize my concern :

Strenght based life build have their armor from armor gear + Iron Reflex/grace AND have life + damages from strenght

Dex based life build have their armor (assuming they play armor and not evasion) from EV gear + Iron Reflex/grace but only have accuracy from dex

Even if EV gear have roughly 20% more stats than Armor ones i still don't think it's a fair trade.