Detailed overview of Diablo 3 vs. Path of Exile

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Nubatron написал:

I would dare you to prove your statement on trading. In a temporary league, start from scratch and trade your way to a Shavronne's Wrappings quickly. Report back how many hours of game time it took you to do so. Not number of days played non-contiguously...number of total hours played.

This is my torment character (waiting for act 4 so not even playing nowadays) and that hasn't even tried to hardcore trade and has been afk a lot.

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It is true that hardcore provides a loss associated with death in both games. The issue is that some people want shades of gray. In D3, it is quite binary: Lose everything with death, or lose next to nothing. Losing everything appeals to some but not all. There are a group of people who want to have a feeling of loss, but not so dramatic. POE provides that whereas D3 certainly does not. Unless ROS brought something different to the table, death in non-HC D3 was meaningless.

You are aware that the world is not black and white only, right?

D3 RoS death in Greater Rifts of higher difficulty in most cases means you are no longer able to advance to the next difficulty in that run, so you now have to restart Greater Rift runs to reach back to where you were before. That's a significant time loss, but certainly not near the 20+ hour losses you get when you die at very high levels in Standard/Torment.

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mrpetrov написал:

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Nubatron написал:

I would dare you to prove your statement on trading. In a temporary league, start from scratch and trade your way to a Shavronne's Wrappings quickly. Report back how many hours of game time it took you to do so. Not number of days played non-contiguously...number of total hours played.

Trading enhances progression for most of us, it does not replace other elements. They are complimentary and not in opposition of each other.

Nub, you say a lot of good stuff but not at least providing a nod to RMT is a bit disingenuous. If I really wanted the wrappings, even in a temporary league, RMT can facilitate it in a very efficient way that D3 does not (in b4 dirk comes in and starts talking about buying accounts). I struggle to see how RMT is complimentary to gameplay, really - even if it is theoretically prohibited.

Pulled out of context unfortunately. The edited out ending sentence being the most important:

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The path taken within the game (no matter what it is) is playing the game.

Keywords being 'within the game'. An approach that completely annihilates the ability to cheat usually has an unintended consequence, sometimes ruining core elements of a game. RMT is not a part of the game, it is a blackmarket within the game which is illegal. D3 (pre-ROS) had RMT as a Blizzard endorsed built in part of the game...in that context, it would be an unfortunate nod to it. POE and GGG however, does not.

The sheer existence of it does not mean it is a part of the official game. It is an unintended (and unavoidable) consequence of multiplayer equipment interactivity. This is a value judgement. Is trading and that level of interaction worth the unintended and unavoidable consequence of trading?

(HINT: There is no right answer. Only choices with positive/negative outcomes associated with both)

To expand upon that, the existence of something does not mean the methods used have failed and should be removed. Real life example: Murder (homicide) is generally illegal with legislation in most all civilized (and uncivilized) countries. There is not a single country that is free of murder though. Does that mean the laws are not working? Who knows what it would be like without the laws. Does the punitive part of the law need to be more harsh? Check out the statistics of Texas in terms of murder and tell me how that is going for them....

It's just not so easy.

I promise you, there is no one in this game that hates cheating more than me in a multiplayer environment but I accept it as a necessary evil and only expect that a reasonable policing of it is done. To be clear, reasonable in my eyes means incontrovertible evidence is provided against the offender that could not be fabricated.

In summary, my post was not a nod to RMT because of one simple nuanced sentence:

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The path taken within the game (no matter what it is) is playing the game.

I can't believe people still complain about the death penalty.

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mazul написал:

You are aware of that you reach endgame gear (as in gear worth over 10 exalt each in temporary leagues) much faster in PoE due to being proficient in trading?

You are aware of that both games have a hardcore mode that appeal to the "having tangible risk with dying"?


To pretend as if the games are intended to appeal to completely different demographics is to be lazy or naive. Both games try to appeal to hardcore and casual players. A big actual difference is that D3 is not intended to attract players that love trading, while PoE is intended to attract people who like in-efficient trading.

What ? Man, you reach endgame gear in D3 in a new season in a few days AT MOST. If trading is cheesing your way up to endgame, then what is D3 self found model, where everything falls from the sky every 10 seconds ? Everybody with a little bit of time on their hand and who know what they are doing was already farming T6 within the first days of season 2 launch. I made a monk in season 2 and I'm already done with it, because just as everybody else I had my full hybrid Sunwuko/Inna set and my Temple Torch to faceroll "high end" content after a few days in. It never happened to me in PoE, even with trading. And I don't think you can say it yourself, since it appears you're not even playing this game anyways.

If only people learned that they could have fun playing a game, and not have to "prove" that their choice was better, we'd all be better off. Play the game you like. Play both. Play neither. Up to you.

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Morgoth2356 написал:

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mazul написал:

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And the most obvious one : end-game and replayability. Seriously, how can D3 really win this one just because of desync ? That's total non-sense.

It didn't win just because of desync. He simply stated that in his opinion the advantages PoE endgame has over D3 endgame does not outweight the desync and death penalty disadvantages. Priorly he had already described both endgames.

So basically dsync is the major factor why he decides D3 has the better end game, period.

I agree with this. Among the differences between d3 and PoE endgame, the author considers dsync is a major negative factor for PoE.

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He brings it as the "hammer" argument that make the decision, so D3 wins because of PoE's desync.

I disagree. If D3's endgame did not have rifts and greater rifts, D3 would have not won despite PoE's desync. To attribute the win to not having PoE's desync is a dishonest characterization of D3's endgame.

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Which is non-sense. And "death penalty disadvantages" ? Once again, totally subjective point of view.

Yes, it is a completely subjective point. Why do you expect anything else? Taste is subjective.

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I, among many others, don't think having a death penalty is a disadvantage at all, even considering the fact that dsync is in the game.

D3 has a penalty: time. PoE's penalty is the same: time, but the time lost is much higher than in D3 at high levels.

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mazul написал:

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Nubatron написал:

I would dare you to prove your statement on trading. In a temporary league, start from scratch and trade your way to a Shavronne's Wrappings quickly. Report back how many hours of game time it took you to do so. Not number of days played non-contiguously...number of total hours played.

This is my torment character (waiting for act 4 so not even playing nowadays) and that hasn't even tried to hardcore trade and has been afk a lot.

"

It is true that hardcore provides a loss associated with death in both games. The issue is that some people want shades of gray. In D3, it is quite binary: Lose everything with death, or lose next to nothing. Losing everything appeals to some but not all. There are a group of people who want to have a feeling of loss, but not so dramatic. POE provides that whereas D3 certainly does not. Unless ROS brought something different to the table, death in non-HC D3 was meaningless.

You are aware that the world is not black and white only, right?

D3 RoS death in Greater Rifts of higher difficulty in most cases means you are no longer able to advance to the next difficulty in that run, so you now have to restart Greater Rift runs to reach back to where you were before. That's a significant time loss, but certainly not near the 20+ hour losses you get when you die at very high levels in Standard/Torment.

Nice mirror :)

Anyway, that doesnt really answer the mail.
Subjective statements like AFK a lot is not quantifiable. The amount of time played is quite significant though. My challenge was specific:

Start with nothing and show a screen shot with a shavronnes and gametime played. I unfortunately used the term "quickly" which is subjective.

It is my belief that end game gear in D3 can be obtained significantly quicker than any legal means with within POE. That is truly what my hypothesis is based upon consistent feedback about POE versus D3 from my own experience and friends. I have nothing other than anecdotes to back up that belief though...

At some point, consistent themes and feedback exist for a reason.

Example: I rarely experience game ruining desync BUT I do see others consistently complaining about it. Reasonable conclusion? Desync does ruin the gaming experience for some, and is an issue that GGG should (probably is) working to improve....emphasis on the word improve; not fix.

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Shagsbeard написал:

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mazul написал:

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Nubatron написал:

D3 has built in guaranteed drops that even the least competent and downright imbecilic can still progress with. To take it one step further, there is no permanence at all in the players decisions. D3 screams casual.

If you play in non-hardcore league in Path of Exile, even the "least competent and downright imbecilic" can still progress his wealth with the drops he gets.

D3 has very much permanence in its crafting system, in which each time you use it on an item, you'll permanently increase the cost of using it again on the same item.

What permanence in player decisions does PoE have in non-hardcore leagues other than than choosing a class? Skills? Nope, you can just replace them through trading. Passives? Nope, you reset them with a bit of cost.

False. Most casual players wont make it past act II cruel without resorting to trading for equipment their characters couldn't possible find yet.

The game is designed around trade. Even at act II cruel, the "least competent and downright imbecillic" player can still find alteration shards and alchemy shards to slowly get enough wealth to trade through trade chat for a gear that can help get past the content he couldn't pass before.

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Nubatron написал:

Nice mirror :)

Anyway, that doesnt really answer the mail.
Subjective statements like AFK a lot is not quantifiable. The amount of time played is quite significant though. My challenge was specific:

Start with nothing and show a screen shot with a shavronnes and gametime played. I unfortunately used the term "quickly" which is subjective.

It is my belief that end game gear in D3 can be obtained significantly quicker than any legal means with within POE. That is truly what my hypothesis is based upon consistent feedback about POE versus D3 from my own experience and friends. I have nothing other than anecdotes to back up that belief though...

At some point, consistent themes and feedback exist for a reason.

Example: I rarely experience game ruining desync BUT I do see others consistently complaining about it. Reasonable conclusion? Desync does ruin the gaming experience for some, and is an issue that GGG should (probably is) working to improve....emphasis on the word improve; not fix.

Would you get the best set pieces (and other gear) for your class in D3 with decent rolls (certainly not perfect rolls) in 166 hours of gameplay? Given that it is so reliant on RNG as you can't trade your way to get specific gear, I would very much doubt that it is extremely likely in 166 hours.

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mazul написал:

Would you get the best set pieces (and other gear) for your class in D3 with decent rolls (certainly not perfect rolls) in 166 hours of gameplay? Given that it is so reliant on RNG as you can't trade your way to get specific gear, I would very much doubt that it is extremely likely in 166 hours.

Almost all of my Sunwuko and Inna pieces from season 2 (we are like only 10 days in) are already Ancient. And I played way less than 166 hours. You can't trade your way to specific gear, but the said gear just rain all over you all the time.