When are we getting better trading tools?

"

Trading is a very difficult topic in Path of Exile because unanimously all the vocal players want it to be easier. The fact we're not making trading easier is a ... they don't know the ... they have no idea why we have that policy and this is difficult because we don't want to hurt the players but at the same time we don't want the effects that you get when you can trivially upgrade your character to max within a few days of his starting. I mean like when i played using the auction house, both diablo 3 and other games, i was playing the auction house a lot more than i was actually killing monsters. 99% of my upgrades came from there and it was a completely different game, and one that i enjoyed less than actually killing monsters. The nice thing about no trade and diablo 3 of course is that you actually get the experience of finding... (upgrading?) your character, and that's a really good feeling and kind of the core behind action rpgs and thats why we want a hybrid approach. Where trading is cumbersome you know you can't do it... there's a cost to it in terms of time, frustration. And we want to take some of that frustration away but at the same time it's never gonna become particularly fast.

Yeah, that.

He knows what you want, he's sorry you're not happy, but he also understands the systemic problem, and won't implement a system that might make you happy for a little while a, but which do so at a cost to the game as a functioning system.

PoE Trade goes down for an hour and all you see nonstop in chat is people complaining and pulling their hair out. This game is drowning in trade already.

I would be genuinely interested in a honest poll result comparing satisfaction levels between primary traders and primary players.

All I want is a separate, nontransferrable no trade mode with increased drop rates. Lucky for me the base game has just enough carrots to retain my continued interest because I do not trade, and the chance to get anything decent in your build is vanishingly small.

"

Unquietheart написал:

"

Trading is a very difficult topic in Path of Exile because unanimously all the vocal players want it to be easier. The fact we're not making trading easier is a ... they don't know the ... they have no idea why we have that policy and this is difficult because we don't want to hurt the players but at the same time we don't want the effects that you get when you can trivially upgrade your character to max within a few days of his starting. I mean like when i played using the auction house, both diablo 3 and other games, i was playing the auction house a lot more than i was actually killing monsters. 99% of my upgrades came from there and it was a completely different game, and one that i enjoyed less than actually killing monsters. The nice thing about no trade and diablo 3 of course is that you actually get the experience of finding... (upgrading?) your character, and that's a really good feeling and kind of the core behind action rpgs and thats why we want a hybrid approach. Where trading is cumbersome you know you can't do it... there's a cost to it in terms of time, frustration. And we want to take some of that frustration away but at the same time it's never gonna become particularly fast.

Yeah, that.

He knows what you want, he's sorry you're not happy, but he also understands the systemic problem, and won't implement a system that might make you happy for a little while a, but which do so at a cost to the game as a functioning system.

Yeah that...... Just lol hold on one more lol for you.

If Cris gave a DUCK he would remove the API.

Auction House trade bot poe.trade just about the same thing..... JUST LOL "we don't want the effects that you get when you can trivially upgrade your character to max within a few days" Cris you play this game at all any more???????????? Very few items that can't be gotten within 2 mins with a 3rd party tool wake up. All the people are asking you do to is to remove one of the many levels of boting that this game has become.

Oh god, I have catching up to do in this thread...

"

Morgasming написал:

Seems some missed their basic economics lessons.

To start: Supply and demand.

If you are for the AH explain how you would operate it. Would it be run with instant buyout while AFK or not even logged in? Is that the most important thing yall want?

The very simple fact is that the trading game the way it is is quite manageable and quite fine overall. Simply screeching AUCTION HOUSE wont make that a better system, if anything I would say it has the potential to ruin the game for a long time.

Here are some reasons why:
-Orb flipping with an instant buyout auction house can make people rich in an INSTANT rather than over time completing trades-

Wrong. Immediately wrong. Your very first point. Wrong. Can't wait to read the other stuff.

Flipping would seize to exist. BECAUSE of the instant buyouts, the REASON flipping exists would be deleted.

Flipping is based on the inconsistent price ratios of X being sold for Y, and Y being sold for X. Those ratios are inconsistent in the first place largely due to the reliance of sellers being online, which causes two things. 1) Those who are online become a much larger percentage of available items, and have a larger influence on the market. 2) Buyers get impatient, and instead of just "waiting for tomorrow to get a fair deal," they make do with buying from the flippers. This is entirely what enables this flipping in the first place.

An auction house would FORCIBLY... well, enforce an averaged-out market of all things. Flippers and other such abusers are afraid of this.

In short... With an AH, there would be no such thing as flipping.

"

-Items that aren't high tier become next to worthless-
How so?
I pick up a nice item, now I would be IDing more items that are meta because, well, I want to sell them. Or I completely ignore them because there's already a guy with a good item competing with all the other instant sellers with what was previously a good item. Right now, you pick up a good item or base and you craft on it, well... no reason to with the AH you can probably go buy one for way less currency because they are easily acquired from people who are AFK/Not using the build for cheaper than they are now.

Right now, certain items only have the costs they do because they are competing with people who are pricing them. Well, if you want to buy an opal ring there is an initial barrier to entry. If you want to sell it why would you go way lower than the lowest price available?
If someone wants instant gratification they sell that item for cheaper than the rest of people. Well, if no one budges from their high point, then the economy gets flooded until there is a crash (People want to get that value from their item).

This doesn't really happen on PoE now (at least not often) and it would happen often with an auction house allowing for people to trade items instantly at no opportunity cost.

When opportunity costs are eliminated people will begin to sell out whatever they find that they wont use in an already flooded market. Inevitably currency and decent rares will get flooded onto the market and will exchange hands very rapidly (and eventually not at all). Making all of those items worth less than they are now. ALL OF THEM.

What are you talking about? There will be no change in the market's saturation whatsoever. Just because there's an auction house doesn't mean everything in it will sell for whatever it's priced at. Low-tier items exist in the market now, and often do not get sold. The same would happen with an AH. They'd just sit there. Like they do now on poetrade.

Literally all an AH would do is make offline purchases possible, and eliminate the various degrees of griefing that idlers/afk'ers have on trying to buy things AND sell things.

I don't even want to read any other posts anymore... I can't believe these are real human beings typing these posts at their computers...

Opposing an AH is literally either because you're a flipper that wants to keep their free income, or because you falsely believe that other games were negatively impacted by having an AH (which would be false, still waiting on an example where an AH ruined a game and how), and are blindly mouth-foaming against having one in PoE.

Personally, I'm about convinced that most people who do not want a built-in system are just people who abuse PoE.Trade and its shortcomings in some form or fashion and would hate to lose that avenue of gameplay.

Because your average person who might trade here and there would do nothing but benefit from an in-house PoE.Trade system. The people who wouldn't are mainly flippers/scammers/botters/private indexers/etc.

And I can't help but think anytime I read any of these threads, that is all I see. 3 divides.

Your average gamer who just wants a more fair experience. People held accountable for their actions. An easier time that is less intrusive to their gaming experience. These people just play the game, want to make their trades to make their dudes better, and not feel scammed or annoyed anytime they minimize to go play the real game on PoE.Trade.

Your flipper/abuser/whatever. These guys milk PoE.Trade for all its worth in various ways. Flipping, using private indexers, price-fixing, scamming, etc. There is no arguing that the most profitable way to make currency in this game is by "playing the AH." Its made incredibly easy by just PoE.Trade. Just open up multiple tabs looking for items that most people have low idea of value, set it for whoops, and go about your business. My buddy usually has 10-15 pages open at a time just whooping items for flipping. He would be someone sad to see PoE.Trade go. You basically have a free D3 AH Bot for nothing, and its perfectly acceptable. Just constantly scanning for deals and you dont even have to pay attention.

And the 3rd are people who just hate trading, which is understandable. They think any sort of focus on trading is going to somehow negatively impact their enjoyment of the game. But now that SSF exists, I dont see how this is as big of a deal as it used to be. These are also people who felt burned by D3 AH, but I personally feel a lot of people scapegoat D3 AH instead of just complaining about how shitty the actual game was. The AH was more the cherry on top of a shit sundae than the main issue with D3. It exacerabated and amplified problems that already existed within the game, not the actual downfall of the game itself.

But that's what I see anytime I read these. Personally, I would like PoE.trade built into the game. I feel PoE.Trade is fine except for how easily abusable it is. The fact you can list items you never plan to sell, the fact you can set 15 pages just constantly scanning for items(which you would have to manually search for if it was built-in), and just the fact I have to remove myself from the actual game and use a 3rd party site to enjoy the game is a major problem. The sad fact of PoE is it runs off PoE.Trade. This game would fall into chaos if that site didn't exist. Just be around on a day that its down. The entire game grinds to a halt. I don't see how any self-respecting developer could be ok with the fact their game doesn't even function without a 3rd party site.

The biggest slap in the face comes when you realize that actually playing the game is the worst way to gain riches, and your best method is just opening up 10-15 pages constantly auto-scanning for flips. Its comical that you can at least keep playing the game WHILE your AH bots scan PoE.Trade for you. Just being on skype/vent with my buddy its funny just listening to "whoop" 24/7 the entire time we are on VOIP. He's playing PoE the right way.

But yea, I feel most people against AH fall into category 2. They abuse PoE.Trade and would hate to see it go.

"

ShadyC написал:

Oh god, I have catching up to do in this thread...

"

Morgasming написал:

Seems some missed their basic economics lessons.

To start: Supply and demand.

If you are for the AH explain how you would operate it. Would it be run with instant buyout while AFK or not even logged in? Is that the most important thing yall want?

The very simple fact is that the trading game the way it is is quite manageable and quite fine overall. Simply screeching AUCTION HOUSE wont make that a better system, if anything I would say it has the potential to ruin the game for a long time.

Here are some reasons why:
-Orb flipping with an instant buyout auction house can make people rich in an INSTANT rather than over time completing trades-

Wrong. Immediately wrong. Your very first point. Wrong. Can't wait to read the other stuff.

Flipping would seize to exist. BECAUSE of the instant buyouts, the REASON flipping exists would be deleted.

Flipping is based on the inconsistent price ratios of X being sold for Y, and Y being sold for X. Those ratios are inconsistent in the first place largely due to the reliance of sellers being online, which causes two things. 1) Those who are online become a much larger percentage of available items, and have a larger influence on the market. 2) Buyers get impatient, and instead of just "waiting for tomorrow to get a fair deal," they make do with buying from the flippers. This is entirely what enables this flipping in the first place.

An auction house would FORCIBLY... well, enforce an averaged-out market of all things. Flippers and other such abusers are afraid of this.

In short... With an AH, there would be no such thing as flipping.

"

-Items that aren't high tier become next to worthless-
How so?
I pick up a nice item, now I would be IDing more items that are meta because, well, I want to sell them. Or I completely ignore them because there's already a guy with a good item competing with all the other instant sellers with what was previously a good item. Right now, you pick up a good item or base and you craft on it, well... no reason to with the AH you can probably go buy one for way less currency because they are easily acquired from people who are AFK/Not using the build for cheaper than they are now.

Right now, certain items only have the costs they do because they are competing with people who are pricing them. Well, if you want to buy an opal ring there is an initial barrier to entry. If you want to sell it why would you go way lower than the lowest price available?
If someone wants instant gratification they sell that item for cheaper than the rest of people. Well, if no one budges from their high point, then the economy gets flooded until there is a crash (People want to get that value from their item).

This doesn't really happen on PoE now (at least not often) and it would happen often with an auction house allowing for people to trade items instantly at no opportunity cost.

When opportunity costs are eliminated people will begin to sell out whatever they find that they wont use in an already flooded market. Inevitably currency and decent rares will get flooded onto the market and will exchange hands very rapidly (and eventually not at all). Making all of those items worth less than they are now. ALL OF THEM.

What are you talking about? There will be no change in the market's saturation whatsoever. Just because there's an auction house doesn't mean everything in it will sell for whatever it's priced at. Low-tier items exist in the market now, and often do not get sold. The same would happen with an AH. They'd just sit there. Like they do now on poetrade.

Literally all an AH would do is make offline purchases possible, and eliminate the various degrees of griefing that idlers/afk'ers have on trying to buy things AND sell things.

I don't even want to read any other posts anymore... I can't believe these are real human beings typing these posts at their computers...

Opposing an AH is literally either because you're a flipper that wants to keep their free income, or because you falsely believe that other games were negatively impacted by having an AH (which would be false, still waiting on an example where an AH ruined a game and how), and are blindly mouth-foaming against having one in PoE.

This thread almost died down abit and then crazy Joe steps in and fires it all up again. To much stupidity in 1 post to bother responding. Especially the 'everyone who disagrees with me is a poopyhead' comment is golden. Try something abit more original next time.

In short though. Don't comment on the economy if you are clueless.

"

Destructodave написал:

And the 3rd are people who just hate trading, which is understandable. They think any sort of focus on trading is going to somehow negatively impact their enjoyment of the game. But now that SSF exists, I dont see how this is as big of a deal as it used to be. These are also people who felt burned by D3 AH, but I personally feel a lot of people scapegoat D3 AH instead of just complaining about how shitty the actual game was. The AH was more the cherry on top of a shit sundae than the main issue with D3. It exacerabated and amplified problems that already existed within the game, not the actual downfall of the game itself.

I am pulling this in a bit of a minor tangent of my own making (2 posts), but this is directly to my previous post.

I am well in this Third category - but SSF does not "solve" any issue to my group, primarily because the game is designed around the "vanishingly small" chance of chase items or actual items applicable to your build (or even to 3 or 4 builds you may be flirting with) dropping for you.

Which is why I would advocate for a non-transferrable SSF with slightly increased drop rates. All current SSF does is put people who dislike trade in competition for a ladder with each other. I started putting my characters in SSF but what was the point? I am SSF in regular mode too, it makes no difference in gameplay whether you are self-imposed or check box SSF - you are still playing with crippled drop rates and no alternative to acquire gear as per the "design philosophy".

Lol don't lump us trade haters in with people who misunderstood the shortfalls of the D3AH!

"

Miská написал:

This thread almost died down abit and then crazy Joe steps in and fires it all up again. To much stupidity in 1 post to bother responding. Especially the 'everyone who disagrees with me is a poopyhead' comment is golden. Try something abit more original next time.

In short though. Don't comment on the economy if you are clueless.

Oh man, you really outdid yourself on this one, didn't you?

"There's too much wrong about your post, so in short, just know that you're wrong."

WOOO!

What a doozy. How will I ever show my face around here again?

"

Slaanesh69 написал:

Lol don't lump us trade haters in with people who misunderstood the shortfalls of the D3AH!

Ok. Since nobody wants to take up my open challenge about presenting me with a how & why on the D3 AH ruining the game, but yet continuously refer to it as an example, maybe I need to start the train.

The AH in D3 did literally nothing negative to the game. If you perceive it as having made players spend more time browsing items than playing the game, then I'm sure the same exact thing is ALREADY happening for those players here in PoE with poetrade. If you think the Real Money portion of the AH was negative, then I ask you, how? Everyone LOVES throwing around the whole, "but it doesn't affect YOU," argument when talking about meta vs non-meta builds in PoE. Well you wanna talk about something not affecting you? Somebody else buying an item for real money. That doesn't affect you. Just like how it doesn't affect you if they buy something in PoE with in-game currency. By the way, people buy items all the time in PoE with real life money by using d2jsp. But you goons make NOT AN UTTERANCE about that.

And when they took the Real Money out of D3's AH, it served a totally pure purpose. It was exactly what an AH was supposed to be. You play the game, you save up, you buy upgrades you were unable to find.

Then their brilliant game designers decide they have a philosophical problem with it and they take it away. The game is now FORCIBLY self-found. And the game begins to die; and as of this day today, it is indeed dead.

Take away poetrade. I DARE you. If you think people are gonna welcome the trade chat shenanigans again, you're sorely mistaken. If you think people would play PoE if it was forcibly self-found like D3 is, you're sorely mistaken. Just because you completely missed it happening doesn't mean that poetrade didn't completely save the life of this video game on its own. Just because you don't want to accept it doesn't mean it isn't 100.00% true.

An auction house in PoE would do only good things.

Listen. It's quite simple, really.

1) A game without trading is self-found only. Do you want self-found only for PoE?

2) So you want trading. Ok. Well the best form of trading is an auction house.

What's the debate even about? It's really just these two logical steps. Instead, GGG says they "want a hybrid"? What does that even mean? A hybrid of good and bad?

And who even are they to talk like poetrade is part of their game? It's a fucking 3rd-party site, made out of NECESSITY because GGG refuses to make something for us outside a trade chat.

Every time this game's trading has gotten easier, the game has directly improved in vital signs because of it. So... where's the confusion coming from? It's extraordinarily linear. Just look forward at the road, what are you doing looking off into the trees & shit for?

It's just ALL so incredibly fucked up. The frustrating part is all of the short-sighted community members that also just don't get it.

"

ShadyC написал:

Opposing an AH is literally either because you're a flipper that wants to keep their free income, or because you falsely believe that other games were negatively impacted by having an AH (which would be false, still waiting on an example where an AH ruined a game and how), and are blindly mouth-foaming against having one in PoE.

You know you're sort of incapable of having a real debate, when you spew out things like this? YOU are sitting here and TELLING other people why THEY are against something? How is up there, on your white horse?

And just because YOU use the word "false/falsely", doesn't make it a fact. I know a lot of people that hated the AH in D3. I can even remember the havoc on the battle.net forums. A LOT of people hated it - for many different reasons.

I can only speak for myself and why I hated it; the fact that you can put an item up for sale, price it and sell it within seconds, the same way as you can search an item, buy it within seconds and have yourself an upgrade that would take 100 hours to farm - for the amount of currency you can farm in 30 minutes, takes away almost any joy of looking for gear. 95% of everything you'll find will be so common, that the prices on "regular good gear" will drop. You saying "this is false" doesn't prove anything.

Fact: An in game AH would make more people trade. The chances of YOU being lucky enough to find an item good enough to sell for more than the inevitable, bottom-inflated prices goes down. The whole point of identifying items goes down, when you KNOW there's better items on the AH that cost almost nothing. So to earn currency, you have to trade even MORE than today.

And then there's the whole balance-issue. No, GGG may not adjust drop rates, items, progression and stuff like that right away if an AH is implemented. But every god damn decisions on those factors are being balanced WITH an AH in mind. If you do not think an AH would affect certain decisions about drop rates, item design, in-game progression and difficulty, I think you are being naive.

You can sit in your $500 chair and say "but that's how it already is now". Yes, to a certain degree. But an AH would accelerate and multiply this.

I just can't seem to grasp it: People are crying for this "hard core ARPG", but to buy everything they want - when they want it - without any effort - seems to be their God given right.

Lastly; if you're unable to answer this without being arrogant, condescending and have this "everyone disagreeing with me are wrong - that's a fact"-attitude, please do not answer.

"

ShadyC написал:

Ok. Since nobody wants to take up my open challenge about presenting me with a how & why on the D3 AH ruining the game, but yet continuously refer to it as an example, maybe I need to start the train.

The AH in D3 did literally nothing negative to the game. If you perceive it as having made players spend more time browsing items than playing the game, then I'm sure the same exact thing is ALREADY happening for those players here in PoE with poetrade. If you think the Real Money portion of the AH was negative, then I ask you, how? Everyone LOVES throwing around the whole, "but it doesn't affect YOU," argument when talking about meta vs non-meta builds in PoE. Well you wanna talk about something not affecting you? Somebody else buying an item for real money. That doesn't affect you. Just like how it doesn't affect you if they buy something in PoE with in-game currency. By the way, people buy items all the time in PoE with real life money by using d2jsp. But you goons make NOT AN UTTERANCE about that.

And when they took the Real Money out of D3's AH, it served a totally pure purpose. It was exactly what an AH was supposed to be. You play the game, you save up, you buy upgrades you were unable to find.

Then their brilliant game designers decide they have a philosophical problem with it and they take it away. The game is now FORCIBLY self-found. And the game begins to die; and as of this day today, it is indeed dead.

Take away poetrade. I DARE you. If you think people are gonna welcome the trade chat shenanigans again, you're sorely mistaken. If you think people would play PoE if it was forcibly self-found like D3 is, you're sorely mistaken. Just because you completely missed it happening doesn't mean that poetrade didn't completely save the life of this video game on its own. Just because you don't want to accept it doesn't mean it isn't 100.00% true.

An auction house in PoE would do only good things.

Listen. It's quite simple, really.

1) A game without trading is self-found only. Do you want self-found only for PoE?

2) So you want trading. Ok. Well the best form of trading is an auction house.

What's the debate even about? It's really just these two logical steps. Instead, GGG says they "want a hybrid"? What does that even mean? A hybrid of good and bad?

And who even are they to talk like poetrade is part of their game? It's a fucking 3rd-party site, made out of NECESSITY because GGG refuses to make something for us outside a trade chat.

Every time this game's trading has gotten easier, the game has directly improved in vital signs because of it. So... where's the confusion coming from? It's extraordinarily linear. Just look forward at the road, what are you doing looking off into the trees & shit for?

It's just ALL so incredibly fucked up. The frustrating part is all of the short-sighted community members that also just don't get it.

People are tired of repeating the same story over and over and over. Your last sentence reflect on yourself in that case. You...just....don't...get....it.

If you actually played Diablo when it came out you would know Diablo had nothing to do with killing monsters and getting good loot. You were best off spending your day infront of the AH, being bored as fuck. Flipping for upgrades you wouldn't hope to get actually PLAYING the game. The droprates, the rarity of GG legendaries was all based on that AH. The goal wasn't killing monsters any longer. It was just play the AH game all day, and have GG gear without killing any monster ever. Trading took no effort, rewards outdid monster killing by so much that playing wasn't really an option if you cared only 1 bit about getting GG gear.

The rest of your comments don't even make any sense. You want RMT in this game apparently. Blame GGG for the community making Poe.trade (They did not want it as convenient as it is). And then continue to insult anyone with a different opinion then yourself. If you want to spend your time infront of an AH be my guest. Not me. Keeping more convenience away from trading helps to balance the effort required trading vs monster killing. Thank god GGG know this, and have stated this multiple times already, regardless of your and other peoples continues ignorance.