When are we getting better trading tools?

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ythealien написал:

I'm not a long-time player so you can answer this for me - when the stash tab API access was introduced, making selling items far easier for thousands of people, were there significant adjustments to drop rates? No, right? Have there ever been any other improvements to trading, and has it ever negatively affected drop rates?

Not to my knowledge, no. But I'll give GGG the benefit of the doubt regarding balancing the game around a third part site. Look, I'm not saying they'll flip a switch, turning drop rates down over night. But adjusting some rates in the long run based on the repercussions of an AH? Absolutely possible. But hey, you're allowed to disagree. I'm not calling you names and insulting your mental state ;)

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Phrazz написал:

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ythealien написал:

I'm not a long-time player so you can answer this for me - when the stash tab API access was introduced, making selling items far easier for thousands of people, were there significant adjustments to drop rates? No, right? Have there ever been any other improvements to trading, and has it ever negatively affected drop rates?

Not to my knowledge, no. But I'll give GGG the benefit of the doubt regarding balancing the game around a third part site. Look, I'm not saying they'll flip a switch, turning drop rates down over night. But adjusting some rates in the long run based on the repercussions of an AH? Absolutely possible. But hey, you're allowed to disagree. I'm not calling you names and insulting your mental state ;)

Of course there were. There still are.

Prices for high end items dropped significantly, high end currency got significantly inflated.

All those "what is this, ex:chaos ratio is 1:100, what is this insanity!" threads that are flooding the forums each league are a direct syntom of how much easier flipping and trading became.

That said, it already is really easy, i doubt another push to user friendlyness is going to change much. Unless they make selling in bulk and buying in bulk singificantly easier that is.

Point is, that trading is functional for the ~16 minutes it takes to gear up your Character, and selling good drops every once in a blue moon. Any use beyond that isnt really intended, i suppose.

edit: i didnt read the comment properly. I thought it was saying something about impact on prices. Duh. I doubt there were real big changes to droprates just because of trading.

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Bashiok написал:

What I said, and what is true, is that with far more players and an increased proliferation of item trade, we have to factor in how many items are being found by players and how quickly a player can gear up by 'sourcing' items from others through trade and the convenience of the gold auction house.

If we say "a player should have X power in Y amount of time through drops" and completely ignore that the time factor can be reduced by simply having access to more drops through trading and the auction house, players would be gearing up far quicker than we've determined they should. It has nothing to do with the auction house per se, but the general ease at which players have access to more items than they would without it and us needing to keep that in mind while balancing drops. It would be rather poorly thought out if we balanced drops completely ignoring all of the ways players can gear up, and trading is certainly one of them.

Obviously everyone wants the best gear possible as quickly as possible, and us attempting to mediate that through design that takes all factors into account is not always going to be a popular notion.

Source: http://www.diablofans.com/blizz-tracker/topic/3656-blizzard-admits-the-ah-affects-drop-rates

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Lylirra написал:

Q. Why is the auction house system being removed from Diablo III?
The gold and real-money auction houses have provided a convenient and secure system for trading, but it's also become increasingly clear that despite the benefits they provide, they ultimately undermine Diablo’s core gameplay. A big part of Diablo is the thrill of battling demons and finding epic loot. While buying epic loot in the auction houses might be more convenient, it doesn't feel anywhere near as heroic as plowing through a pack of fearsome-looking monsters and having them drop that one awesome item that seems like it was made for your character.

Source: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/d3/topic/9972208129

https://www.wired.com/2013/09/diablo-auction-house/

Yeah, D3 had some serious flaws. But regardless of those game-play and design flaws, the AH was a whole separate issue on top of that.


That's all history folks, not speculation.

That's what an AH does to an ARPG.

If you make trading easier, then you undermine the core principle of an ARPG: Incremental rewards driven by actual game play.

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Unquietheart написал:

...A lot...

There we go. But of course, this won't happen in PoE. Because logic.

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Unquietheart написал:

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Bashiok написал:

What I said, and what is true, is that with far more players and an increased proliferation of item trade, we have to factor in how many items are being found by players and how quickly a player can gear up by 'sourcing' items from others through trade and the convenience of the gold auction house.

If we say "a player should have X power in Y amount of time through drops" and completely ignore that the time factor can be reduced by simply having access to more drops through trading and the auction house, players would be gearing up far quicker than we've determined they should. It has nothing to do with the auction house per se, but the general ease at which players have access to more items than they would without it and us needing to keep that in mind while balancing drops. It would be rather poorly thought out if we balanced drops completely ignoring all of the ways players can gear up, and trading is certainly one of them.

Obviously everyone wants the best gear possible as quickly as possible, and us attempting to mediate that through design that takes all factors into account is not always going to be a popular notion.

Source: http://www.diablofans.com/blizz-tracker/topic/3656-blizzard-admits-the-ah-affects-drop-rates

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Lylirra написал:

Q. Why is the auction house system being removed from Diablo III?
The gold and real-money auction houses have provided a convenient and secure system for trading, but it's also become increasingly clear that despite the benefits they provide, they ultimately undermine Diablo’s core gameplay. A big part of Diablo is the thrill of battling demons and finding epic loot. While buying epic loot in the auction houses might be more convenient, it doesn't feel anywhere near as heroic as plowing through a pack of fearsome-looking monsters and having them drop that one awesome item that seems like it was made for your character.

Source: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/d3/topic/9972208129

https://www.wired.com/2013/09/diablo-auction-house/

Yeah, D3 had some serious flaws. But regardless of those game-play and design flaws, the AH was a whole separate issue on top of that.


That's all history folks, not speculation.

That's what an AH does to an ARPG.

If you make trading easier, then you undermine the core principle of an ARPG: Incremental rewards driven by actual game play.

Ummm hello... that's what the API did to Path of Indexer

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chronsmash написал:

Ummm hello... that's what the API did to Path of Indexer

Yes, but they were forced to start releasing an API because third party indexers scanning the shop threads was putting a huge burden on their website and bandwidth. Blizzard had to do the same thing with their own AH because trade addons were scanning the entire AH page by page. Now they limit how much scanning can be done and release an API every hour for each server.

This is why one of the biggest ironies with the AH debate is the misconception that an in-game trade tool will eliminate third party software and sites. In reality the more efficient trade gets the more necessary third party software becomes to effective collect information and especially to sell items.

For example, in the current system your selling competition is only the people on line, not afk, and able to trade when offered. None of the pricing is real time making it much harder for people to actively undercut each other. In an AH system your selling competition is anyone who has posted the item within the auction listing time and the pricing is real time meaning people can actively undercut each other.

Every AH I've ever participated in is run by an elite few camping it with 3rd party software.

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Hackusations написал:

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chronsmash написал:

Ummm hello... that's what the API did to Path of Indexer

Yes, but they were forced to start releasing an API because third party indexers scanning the shop threads was putting a huge burden on their website and bandwidth. Blizzard had to do the same thing with their own AH because trade addons were scanning the entire AH page by page. Now they limit how much scanning can be done and release an API every hour for each server.

This is why one of the biggest ironies with the AH debate is the misconception that an in-game trade tool will eliminate third party software and sites. In reality the more efficient trade gets the more necessary third party software becomes to effective collect information and especially to sell items.

For example, in the current system your selling competition is only the people on line, not afk, and able to trade when offered. None of the pricing is real time making it much harder for people to actively undercut each other. In an AH system your selling competition is anyone who has posted the item within the auction listing time and the pricing is real time meaning people can actively undercut each other.

Every AH I've ever participated in is run by an elite few camping it with 3rd party software.

"For example, in the current system your selling competition is only the people on line, not afk, and able to trade when offered. "

LOL, the Misconception is ........ Trade bots are whats running the economy now, not GGG.

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chronsmash написал:

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Hackusations написал:

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chronsmash написал:

Ummm hello... that's what the API did to Path of Indexer

Yes, but they were forced to start releasing an API because third party indexers scanning the shop threads was putting a huge burden on their website and bandwidth. Blizzard had to do the same thing with their own AH because trade addons were scanning the entire AH page by page. Now they limit how much scanning can be done and release an API every hour for each server.

This is why one of the biggest ironies with the AH debate is the misconception that an in-game trade tool will eliminate third party software and sites. In reality the more efficient trade gets the more necessary third party software becomes to effective collect information and especially to sell items.

For example, in the current system your selling competition is only the people on line, not afk, and able to trade when offered. None of the pricing is real time making it much harder for people to actively undercut each other. In an AH system your selling competition is anyone who has posted the item within the auction listing time and the pricing is real time meaning people can actively undercut each other.

Every AH I've ever participated in is run by an elite few camping it with 3rd party software.

"For example, in the current system your selling competition is only the people on line, not afk, and able to trade when offered. "

LOL, the Misconception is ........ Trade bots are whats running the economy now, not GGG.

What about Santa Claus? Michael jackson? Or maybe Elvis.

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Hackusations написал:

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chronsmash написал:

Ummm hello... that's what the API did to Path of Indexer

Yes, but they were forced to start releasing an API because third party indexers scanning the shop threads was putting a huge burden on their website and bandwidth. Blizzard had to do the same thing with their own AH because trade addons were scanning the entire AH page by page. Now they limit how much scanning can be done and release an API every hour for each server.

This is why one of the biggest ironies with the AH debate is the misconception that an in-game trade tool will eliminate third party software and sites. In reality the more efficient trade gets the more necessary third party software becomes to effective collect information and especially to sell items.

For example, in the current system your selling competition is only the people on line, not afk, and able to trade when offered. None of the pricing is real time making it much harder for people to actively undercut each other. In an AH system your selling competition is anyone who has posted the item within the auction listing time and the pricing is real time meaning people can actively undercut each other.

Every AH I've ever participated in is run by an elite few camping it with 3rd party software.

Umm, what? Do you know how live search works on PoE.Trade? It is real time. Its one of the major issues with PoE.Trade. It is literally a D3 Ah bot anyone can use in any number of instances. Why do you think price fixing exists? They list an item and suck up all the items poor noobs price under that item they never intend to sell, in real-time. We aren't even talking about Private indexers. You want to see how fast they are? Find something that people were really flipping. Like, wands at the beginning of Harbinger. They would literally show up crossed out already in PoE's live search lol. Already traded before the live search even got to them becuase of private indexers.

An in-game system could at least limit this to botters, which can then be banned. You can't ban Little Johnny for using PoE.Trade functions they have no control over.

If anything, an in-game system would make trading less efficient. Just look at this example. Ok, I'm a level 85 Cyclone Duelist. I need some new gear. Lets hope on ole PoE.Trade. I know I want a weapon. So lets set it up to search for this specific weapon, maybe Atziri. Set that up for whoops for the best deal. Oh, I need a new ring too. Lets set it up for whoops for exactly what I need, too. Oh, might as well whoop some boots while I'm at it. So I go back to playing the game. I got 3 web-pages auto searching 24/7 for me 3 upgrades. Oh a whoop? Lets minimize and go check that deal out.

And that is just the example of a legit player using it for just upgrades. Imagine price fixers and heavy flippers. They may have 15-30 of those things open, scanning for every new item they can possibly set up.

And you are telling me that it would be MORE efficient inside the game? Well for one we know good and well the system put into the game would not be as user friendly or robust in features. It would probably be clunky and annoying to use.

People entire argument of efficiency boils down to noobs FIGURING out about PoE.Trade and how to use it. Hell, thats barely an entry to trade. If the entire difficulty of using something is just figuring out it exists, how is that some kind of difficulty? Once you start using PoE.Trade, you will start abusing its features. Just because a couple more noobs can list items in-game, with an in-game system, doesn't mean the economy is somehow going to suffer. Hell, it might even be better considering all the tools you would lose from PoE.Trade.

It would be slightly more efficient at getting people INTO trading, and be incredibly inefficient for people who are used to trading. Is that not the Vision that PoE wanted?