A view on what's true melee from a veteran D2GM pvp player

I played D2 for almost 10 years. Some may know me as Ziecheik - the top ww sin for four years running. I spent about 5 years in the "pro" D2 pvp scene and participated in dozens of tournaments.

In diablo 2, abilities like Whirlwind were not considered melee. Why? Because melee had to be "click and hold" which means abilities like Concentrate and Zeal were only a few of the true melee abilities in D2. Bash was not melee because it knocked the enemy back. D2GM melee tournaments were a measure of the capabilities of your gear and build.

Anyway, I figured since PoE gets a lot of influence from D2 that I would share my experience and knowledge on what is and isn't true melee.

These people grasping at straws are very annoying. I would not be surprised if, given time, a pvp scene broke out with PoE and we started seeing tournaments being held. Let me tell you that abilities like cleave and ground slam will not be allowed in any melee tournament and on top of that, it would be foolish to use them against someone playing crit dualstrike - you would get smashed.

Ziecheik \,,/

Played ww/kick assassin in d2 because of you.

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Karpola написал:

Ziecheik \,,/

Played ww/kick assassin in d2 because of you.

Thank you ^^

But there were many good wwsins that came before me, I just made a few youtube vids back in the day...

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geniusbean написал:

Anyway, I figured since PoE gets a lot of influence from D2 that I would share my experience and knowledge on what is and isn't true melee.

The actual definition of melee doesn't change based on people's opinions of a video game tournament.

If I pick up a lead pipe... spin around five times... and break your jaw... that is melee.

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Halsinki написал:

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geniusbean написал:

Anyway, I figured since PoE gets a lot of influence from D2 that I would share my experience and knowledge on what is and isn't true melee.

The actual definition of melee doesn't change based on people's opinions of a video game tournament.

If I pick up a lead pipe... spin around five times... and break your jaw... that is melee.

You're confusing the definition of Melee (Real Life) with Melee (Video Game).

Nobody cares about the first one. The second one however, is important: When you host a tournament, you have to make some rules. And they better make sense.

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Halsinki написал:

The actual definition of melee doesn't change based on people's opinions of a video game tournament.

If I pick up a lead pipe... spin around five times... and break your jaw... that is melee.

Pretty much this.


Melee is pretty much using an object as a weapon. If the weapon makes contact with a target its melee.

Wether you spin, back flip and granny shot it. Melee is melee.

It used to annoy me that some people did not consider WW melee in D2 and would complain about it. I guess some things don't change.



Its almost as if they think if someone gets into a fist fight they should both just stand in one spot while trading punches till someone drops. Hey its all good if thats what you're into.

But, if someone chooses to throw round house punch, its stil a fist fight. IF someone decides to take a few steps back, dodge a few punches and land an uppdercut. Its still a fist fight.

Same logic applies to melee.


People who did not consider WW as melee in D2 did so because WW would usually trumped all the other melee skills.

I do aggree that moves like lightning strike and ground slam are not melee tho. Since its not the actual weapon making contact.

If I use my penis, is that melee or ranged?

Is it both based on people's different opinions?

Is it both based on what I could do with my penis?

Is it all of the above?

An interesting and insightful post, geniusbean.

Let's see. I also devised a build/playstyle on Diablo 2 based on melee, known as the Meleemancer. (stupid name but it caught on.)

The driving force behind it was my dislike of minions but love of curses and self-buffs. I recognised fairly early on that Bone Armor (a damage soak that can be instantly recast) and certain curses could provide the means for a Necromancer to get in there and melee it up with the best of them.

I also liked to test how far I could push a class outside of its natural range.

As folks probably know, the only melee skill the Necromancer had was Poison Dagger, and it was utter shit. It wasn't until synergies were introduced that the skill was even vaguely worth the effort.

So a Meleemancer used only default attack. That to me was the purest concept of melee in an ARPG -- curses and self-buffs supplementing/enabling default weapon attacks. Given that items could get bullshit abilities like deadly strike and crushing blow, it worked pretty well.

I suppose there's some residue of Diablo 1 experience in my definition of pure melee, which had exactly zero melee skills and quite a few spells.

After the second wave of runewords, I dabbled with an amazon build that people referred to as a Tankazon (I think). I didn't look up any guides, just sort of maxed all the dodge passives, blocking, crit strikes, etc, and used a sword (of course). This time I indulged in some cross-class runewording and gave her a Passioned Phaseblade, which granted both Zeal and Berserk, from memory. Even though these were melee "skills", I still figured them to be pure melee because, as far as I could see, the range was no greater than my weapon would have.

So far, so good.

Enter Diablo 3. We'll skip the glory days of the planned 'rune skill system' and just how many melee wizard and demon hunter builds I had planned then. The pain is too great to even think about what might have been. Jump to release. The 'melee wizard' was expected to use Spectral Blades, which I tested in D3beta and found entirely unlike true melee. It was a close-to-mid range arcane simulation of melee. Diablo 3's answer to that dirty-as-fuck sword Crissaegrim in Castlevania: Symphony of the Night. I refused to use it.

But the default attack on both Wizard and Demon Hunter is pretty shit (both have only one animation, which should have told me something), and the early game (level 1-20) support skills didn't really encourage what I considered to be true melee play.

The alternatives? Monk and Barbarian. Flashy fists of energy/ teleporting flurries/long-range dragon kick thingies or whirlwind/scorpion chain attack/shockwaves along the ground. No thanks to both.

...So my days of pure melee in Diablo pretty much died during D3beta.

As for PoE? So far, the spells are insufficient for anything resembling Meleemancy as I played it on D2 (curses come too late, no instant arcane defence a la Bone Armor) so I chose second best: arcane assassin aka Shadow. (Honestly, I really didn't bond with any class until GGG introduced the Shadow).

Since all classes can use all skills, there was no envelope to push with any class. Not really. A sword Shadow is going to use much the same skills as a sword Marauder or a sword Duelist. All classes are capable of melee almost equally, which somewhat reduces the allure of the 'Meleemancer' off-class effect. It's quite hard to do something 'new' with a class on PoE. Mostly we just experiment with skill/support combinations and wait for new skills.

If I play solo, which I typically do, my melee characters of any class do enough damage to get by; in multi-player, their damage is suddenly third-wheel level useless. I can accept that. There are other things any class can do, after all.

If we discount the usual suspects (Lightning Strike, Ground Slam and now I must confess Cleave all fall outside my definition of melee), I find Viper Strike to be the best melee skill in the game. This is ironic, given how crappy Poison Dagger was on D2. :) It relies on virtually no passive nodes for its damage, stops regen, eats through energy shield, and is of course a DoT that enables hit-and-run tactics. I <3 Viper Strike.

But as discussed in the other thread, PoE is no medieval military simulator. My definition of melee is ridiculously restricting but it works for me. It keeps the game interesting for me. But we're facing all sorts of non-melee threats and I completely agree that the playing field is not level. If you have to cleave or lightning strike or ground slam, so be it. I won't call that melee but if you want to, go for it.

My only issue will arise when or if GGG themselves starts to view long-ranged skills that use melee weapons as 'solutions' to any sort of melee problem. I believe that will never happen, and I agree with Vooodu: Cyclone is melee. It's merely a skill that turns melee into a moving concept. Whirling Blades is also melee. In both cases, you are simply shifting the radius of your weapon's arc by moving yourself. The weapon's range does not increase with either skill (to my knowledge).

I think that's pretty much where I stand. If a skill or attack increases a weapon's range beyond that which is possible with default attack, from wielder to enemy, then I do not view it as melee.

I'd be very interested in seeing if GGG can implement a Cleave-like skill that doesn't extend the weapon range but hopefully improves the area of effect. I suppose that'd be a stationary Cyclone, and thus would need other benefits: cheaper to cast, IAS, maybe enhancing on hit effects. Something like that.

I think that'd be a very nifty attack skill indeed.

And it would be within almost everyone's definition of melee.

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IExiledOtherExilesToBeTheExile написал:

If I use my penis, is that melee or ranged?

Is it both based on people's different opinions?

Is it both based on what I could do with my penis?

Is it all of the above?

Totally depends on what you use it for.

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Charan написал:

Totally depends on what you use it for.

It doesn't matter what I use it for. Some people will say it's melee and others will say it's ranged. The question is, what is it in all actuality? I think this question fits this controversy perfectly.