GGGs reasoning on not making a SFL?

RMT is a giant can of worms. I starting writing a post on all the assorted RMT myths — how its impact is less than people think, how "smoothing" RNG wouldn't be a good solution to RMT, etc. — but I have a final in about 3 hours and a decent wall of text would probably take in excess of an hour, as well as crit for lethal damage.

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ScrotieMcB написал:

RMT is a giant can of worms. I starting writing a post on all the assorted RMT myths — how its impact is less than people think, how "smoothing" RNG wouldn't be a good solution to RMT, etc. — but I have a final in about 3 hours and a decent wall of text would probably take in excess of an hour, as well as crit for lethal damage.

I hear you SMcB - good luck in your final and I look forward to the WoT if/when you get a chance!

On the impact of RMT - I think its impact on the game is probably higher than most people think or realise.

If you think about how most people value their time, my belief is that for the marginal PoE player (that's almost certainly *not* the person reading this post), they see the in-game prices that items cost. They then compare it to the RMT cost of those orbs. And, in a game where trade is the path-of-least-resistance-by-a-country-mile, they decide that spending $0.40 to buy the item via RMT-orbs, is much better than (literally) farming many, many hours to afford aforementioned price. We can get specific, if we're allowed to - I think it'd be healthy, frankly.

This decision, made thousands of times over, then perpetuates the RMT business model which perpetuates the decision-making, a virtuous cycle for the RMT peddlers and a vicious cycle for those who don't want anything to do with RMT.

Or you can get lucky and drop a Kaoms/Shav/etc. But apart from comedy anecdotal evidence, let's not pretend that's where the critical mass of wealth in the PoE economy(ies)comes from.

Then we have the nail in the coffin: once you start RMT'ing, you don't stop. Once you don't stop, the game gets boring more quickly and you leave sooner than you otherwise might. This, repeated thousands of times, exacerbates any player decline.

P.

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mrpetrov написал:

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ScrotieMcB написал:

RMT is a giant can of worms. I starting writing a post on all the assorted RMT myths — how its impact is less than people think, how "smoothing" RNG wouldn't be a good solution to RMT, etc. — but I have a final in about 3 hours and a decent wall of text would probably take in excess of an hour, as well as crit for lethal damage.

I hear you SMcB - good luck in your final and I look forward to the WoT if/when you get a chance!

On the impact of RMT - I think its impact on the game is probably higher than most people think or realise.

If you think about how most people value their time, my belief is that for the marginal PoE player (that's almost certainly *not* the person reading this post), they see the in-game prices that items cost. They then compare it to the RMT cost of those orbs. And, in a game where trade is the path-of-least-resistance-by-a-country-mile, they decide that spending $0.40 to buy the item via RMT-orbs, is much better than (literally) farming many, many hours to afford aforementioned price. We can get specific, if we're allowed to - I think it'd be healthy, frankly.

This decision, made thousands of times over, then perpetuates the RMT business model which perpetuates the decision-making, a virtuous cycle for the RMT peddlers and a vicious cycle for those who don't want anything to do with RMT.

Or you can get lucky and drop a Kaoms/Shav/etc. But apart from comedy anecdotal evidence, let's not pretend that's where the critical mass of wealth in the PoE economy(ies)comes from.

Then we have the nail in the coffin: once you start RMT'ing, you don't stop. Once you don't stop, the game gets boring more quickly and you leave sooner than you otherwise might. This, repeated thousands of times, exacerbates any player decline.

P.

So SFL is just a rehab for RMT'ers?

That makes a lot more sense now, because when people brought up a true self found (solo) experience the support for it split. Then the pro/for argument changed to "just remove trade" and the rest can be discussed later. I was all for a solo competitive league, but people still want to be able to trade content, just not items, which makes no sense. As soon as you group, you will find ways of trading, such as map for map, boss kills for maps etc.

If you just want it to stop yourselves from RMT'ing, it is a selfish demand.

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Worldbreaker написал:

So SFL is just a rehab for RMT'ers?

That makes a lot more sense now, because when people brought up a true self found (solo) experience the support for it split. Then the pro/for argument changed to "just remove trade" and the rest can be discussed later. I was all for a solo competitive league, but people still want to be able to trade content, just not items, which makes no sense. As soon as you group, you will find ways of trading, such as map for map, boss kills for maps etc.

If you just want it to stop yourselves from RMT'ing, it is a selfish demand.

Ya know a permanent or 4 month Self Found league could be done with party enabled,but would require very carefull coding on party level limits and area party level limits,disabled guild stashes and shared stashes,non existent race rewards,disabled shared portals etc etc etc,but that's a lot of coding to consider before even changing/adding any of the code itself.

And that's not something I'd really like to see GGG putting time into at the moment,with the ongoing tech trouble I've had since act 3x,not to mention other ongoing problems that need attention.

Presently,the only real option for a legit self found league of any type would be,as you suggest,solo.I'm not a competitive player by nature and only compete with the game itself,but I do understand that others thrive on competition.

=)

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Worldbreaker написал:

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mrpetrov написал:

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ScrotieMcB написал:

RMT is a giant can of worms. I starting writing a post on all the assorted RMT myths — how its impact is less than people think, how "smoothing" RNG wouldn't be a good solution to RMT, etc. — but I have a final in about 3 hours and a decent wall of text would probably take in excess of an hour, as well as crit for lethal damage.

I hear you SMcB - good luck in your final and I look forward to the WoT if/when you get a chance!

On the impact of RMT - I think its impact on the game is probably higher than most people think or realise.

If you think about how most people value their time, my belief is that for the marginal PoE player (that's almost certainly *not* the person reading this post), they see the in-game prices that items cost. They then compare it to the RMT cost of those orbs. And, in a game where trade is the path-of-least-resistance-by-a-country-mile, they decide that spending $0.40 to buy the item via RMT-orbs, is much better than (literally) farming many, many hours to afford aforementioned price. We can get specific, if we're allowed to - I think it'd be healthy, frankly.

This decision, made thousands of times over, then perpetuates the RMT business model which perpetuates the decision-making, a virtuous cycle for the RMT peddlers and a vicious cycle for those who don't want anything to do with RMT.

Or you can get lucky and drop a Kaoms/Shav/etc. But apart from comedy anecdotal evidence, let's not pretend that's where the critical mass of wealth in the PoE economy(ies)comes from.

Then we have the nail in the coffin: once you start RMT'ing, you don't stop. Once you don't stop, the game gets boring more quickly and you leave sooner than you otherwise might. This, repeated thousands of times, exacerbates any player decline.

P.

So SFL is just a rehab for RMT'ers?

That makes a lot more sense now, because when people brought up a true self found (solo) experience the support for it split. Then the pro/for argument changed to "just remove trade" and the rest can be discussed later. I was all for a solo competitive league, but people still want to be able to trade content, just not items, which makes no sense. As soon as you group, you will find ways of trading, such as map for map, boss kills for maps etc.

If you just want it to stop yourselves from RMT'ing, it is a selfish demand.

Did you miss the bit about the impact of RMT on the economy for everyone that trades, or did you chose to ignore it?

P.

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mrpetrov написал:

Did you miss the bit about the impact of RMT on the economy for everyone that trades, or did you chose to ignore it?

P.

No petrov, it has been brought up over and over again and I have voiced my stance many many times stretching back to the jsp arguments of closed beta.

My opinion, is that people that make RMT into such a big deal that it affects them, don't understand how much smaller the issue really is, and people ignorant that it even exists, don't understand how big of a problem it is. It's a problem in any game. Until the day I am blocked from something by playing legitimately, I will consider it a big problem. Solo self found fixes that, but many opposed it, so using RMT as an excuse to remove trade doesn't hold water when RMT could be down to one single method (account selling) which only benefits those competing or playing correctly. The only one at a disadvantage is the guy who buys it possibly getting banned.

I feel I got the salesman treatment to become for a SFL when someone said they wanted solo competition, then I'm like "hell yeah!", So I let the salesman in and he tells me "yep, you can play solo and compete against groups with more map pools, increased drop rates to make the grind less hardcore and you can bring your p2w stash tabs".

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Worldbreaker написал:

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mrpetrov написал:

Did you miss the bit about the impact of RMT on the economy for everyone that trades, or did you chose to ignore it?

P.

No petrov, it has been brought up over and over again and I have voiced my stance many many times stretching back to the jsp arguments of closed beta.

My opinion, is that people that make RMT into such a big deal that it affects them, don't understand how much smaller the issue really is, and people ignorant that it even exists, don't understand how big of a problem it is. It's a problem in any game. Until the day I am blocked from something by playing legitimately, I will consider it a big problem. Solo self found fixes that, but many opposed it, so using RMT as an excuse to remove trade doesn't hold water when RMT could be down to one single method (account selling) which only benefits those competing or playing correctly. The only one at a disadvantage is the guy who buys it possibly getting banned.

I feel I got the salesman treatment to become for a SFL when someone said they wanted solo competition, then I'm like "hell yeah!", So I let the salesman in and he tells me "yep, you can play solo and compete against groups with more map pools, increased drop rates to make the grind less hardcore and you can bring your p2w stash tabs".

It may be a problem in any (online) game, but that doesn't mean that it's as acute a problem in every online game.

1. I'm happy that you define it only to be a "big problem" when you are "blocked from something by playing legitimately". I would argue that it's not a case of being blocked, or not - the impact isn't "on or off". Specifically, at what point does in-game price hyper inflation (exacerbated by RMT) become a "block"? I would argue that there isn't a specific point it becomes a block, but rather price inflation has an increasingly detrimental impact on players' experience (if those players want to trade, path of least resistance, etc). I would hazard that new players find the in-game prices for many desirable (not necessarily end game) items prohibitively high, but ridiculously low in real money terms.

2. You say "many opposed to it [SFL]". You are right, many are opposed to it. But more are in favour of testing it as an optional league. There is evidence to support this. Do you have any evidence to the contrary? Sadly, Chris does not support it yet, which is what ultimately matters.

P.

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mrpetrov написал:

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Worldbreaker написал:

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mrpetrov написал:

Did you miss the bit about the impact of RMT on the economy for everyone that trades, or did you chose to ignore it?

P.

No petrov, it has been brought up over and over again and I have voiced my stance many many times stretching back to the jsp arguments of closed beta.

My opinion, is that people that make RMT into such a big deal that it affects them, don't understand how much smaller the issue really is, and people ignorant that it even exists, don't understand how big of a problem it is. It's a problem in any game. Until the day I am blocked from something by playing legitimately, I will consider it a big problem. Solo self found fixes that, but many opposed it, so using RMT as an excuse to remove trade doesn't hold water when RMT could be down to one single method (account selling) which only benefits those competing or playing correctly. The only one at a disadvantage is the guy who buys it possibly getting banned.

I feel I got the salesman treatment to become for a SFL when someone said they wanted solo competition, then I'm like "hell yeah!", So I let the salesman in and he tells me "yep, you can play solo and compete against groups with more map pools, increased drop rates to make the grind less hardcore and you can bring your p2w stash tabs".

It may be a problem in any (online) game, but that doesn't mean that it's as acute a problem in every online game.

1. I'm happy that you define it only to be a "big problem" when you are "blocked from something by playing legitimately". I would argue that it's not a case of being blocked, or not - the impact isn't "on or off". Specifically, at what point does in-game price hyper inflation (exacerbated by RMT) become a "block"? I would argue that there isn't a specific point it becomes a block, but rather price inflation has an increasingly detrimental impact on players' experience (if those players want to trade, path of least resistance, etc). I would hazard that new players find the in-game prices for many desirable (not necessarily end game) items prohibitively high, but ridiculously low in real money terms.

2. You say "many opposed to it [SFL]". You are right, many are opposed to it. But more are in favour of testing it as an optional league. There is evidence to support this. Do you have any evidence to the contrary? Sadly, Chris does not support it yet, which is what ultimately matters.

P.

1. This was just my opinion on it. I said that. Hmm, let's say ambush if I wanted to I could legitimately do a Shav/Crown of Eyes build, one of the more/most expensive builds in the game. Realistically I could liquidate all my gear and get everything but a 6l shav. I am very good at saving orbs though and only splurge on occasion. Also in my opinion, the gear is dirt cheap in the broader spectrum of things. You will most likely find 100's of exalts worth of items/orbs before a Kaoms Heart or Shavronnes Wrappings yet they cost far far less than that. Now, if they were going for 200-500ex non legacy, then I would be more suspect of RMT affecting the price. Going by chaos to exalts on a smaller scale, you find/recipe maybe even thousands of chaos before an exalt drops for you, yet they are only 20-40 chaos. If RMT was as big as its made out to be I would suspect them to be much much higher. RMT companies focus on big and rare, and I'm not seeing it affecting us like it could be.

2. Your suggestion for a SFL is bland and only suggests removing trade, then people made up their own dream fantasy SFL and hopped on board. However in THIS very thread starting at page 65 when details were being hashed out shit hit the fan, it exposed the fact everyone had thier own idea about what it should be. Pro SFL guys arguing with other pro SFL people. Your survey was based on an idea, people frustrated by trading, drop rates, group play, rng gated content saw this as the Moses of ideas, they didn't even know where they were going, they just didn't want to be "here" anymore.

I challenge you to post a well thought out structured explanation of what SFL should be, and see how many agree in a survey, bonus points if done on Reddit.

I will help a bit and tell you johnkeys made a thread about what it should be, which led to arguing and the thread dying.

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Worldbreaker написал:

2. Your suggestion for a SFL is bland and only suggests removing trade, then people made up their own dream fantasy SFL and hopped on board. However in THIS very thread starting at page 65 when details were being hashed out shit hit the fan, it exposed the fact everyone had thier own idea about what it should be. Pro SFL guys arguing with other pro SFL people. Your survey was based on an idea, people frustrated by trading, drop rates, group play, rng gated content saw this as the Moses of ideas, they didn't even know where they were going, they just didn't want to be "here" anymore.

Your right. There is A LOT of ideas on how a SFL should look like. But they all agree that something needs to be done, and that the solo play style need some love.

I do not think that a SFL is the way to go, but I do agree that the solo play style need some love in the big picture. There have been a lot of updates to make party play better in the history of PoE, updates that didn't do shit for solo players. I would love to see ONE updated that made the solo play style stronger, and at the same time didn't do shit for party play.

But again, a SFL isn't the way to go. A check box option would be better. Check mark your character as "self found" on character creation, disabling all trade and making you unable to pick up anything not allocated to you.

But the best way, imo, is to give solo players some love - flat out - that does not affect party players. But this is a delicate balance, as I do believe party play and trading SHOULD give a player advantages vs. solo play. I just think the balance between solo self found and party trading is TOO screwed at the moment.

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Phrazz написал:

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Worldbreaker написал:

2. Your suggestion for a SFL is bland and only suggests removing trade, then people made up their own dream fantasy SFL and hopped on board. However in THIS very thread starting at page 65 when details were being hashed out shit hit the fan, it exposed the fact everyone had thier own idea about what it should be. Pro SFL guys arguing with other pro SFL people. Your survey was based on an idea, people frustrated by trading, drop rates, group play, rng gated content saw this as the Moses of ideas, they didn't even know where they were going, they just didn't want to be "here" anymore.

Your right. There is A LOT of ideas on how a SFL should look like. But they all agree that something needs to be done, and that the solo play style need some love.

I do not think that a SFL is the way to go, but I do agree that the solo play style need some love in the big picture. There have been a lot of updates to make party play better in the history of PoE, updates that didn't do shit for solo players. I would love to see ONE updated that made the solo play style stronger, and at the same time didn't do shit for party play.

But again, a SFL isn't the way to go. A check box option would be better. Check mark your character as "self found" on character creation, disabling all trade and making you unable to pick up anything not allocated to you.

But the best way, imo, is to give solo players some love - flat out - that does not affect party players. But this is a delicate balance, as I do believe party play and trading SHOULD give a player advantages vs. solo play. I just think the balance between solo self found and party trading is TOO screwed at the moment.

I agree, solo play needs love, trading is fine for me in the normal leagues as far as myself using it sparingly. I do think there is an issue with people abusing it by doing nothing but trading/flipping, which is what trade is often compared to. They have made solo play more attractive by punishing groups with increased hp and decreased XP (compared to CB). It would be nice if there was a bonus of some sort to solo play, like the longer you go solo the better/higher the bonus gets, until you party and it resets, or haven't killed anything for awhile. Don't really know.