With new flask changes; Surgeon's mod should be removed

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LostKavi написал:

Just throwing this out there - surgeons is not OP in clearing for obvious reasons. Surgeons is OP because perma-flasks in boss fights - whereas everyone else has to wait for add spawns (which may or may not be sufficient to give you enough charges)

Gain flask charge on stun however...sounds interesting. Most Resolute Technique characters do tend to stun a lot...it bears discussion.

With enough dps you can get a lot out of non-surgeons flasks.

8.4 seconds can be a very long time......or long enough ;). The only fights that last longer than this tend to be in the apex/abyss and both provide ample opportunities for refilling.

Flasks scale with clear speed ;)

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LostKavi написал:

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AlbinosaurusRex написал:

I don't really think it's as much of a problem as people are making it out to be. Leave it alone, imo.

I think it's a bigger problem than you think it is. And I don't think I can make you recognize just how much of a bigger problem I think it is.

Cause right now - the disparity between a crit and a non-crit character just because of surgeon's permaflasking is pretty colossal.

That doesn't represent a problem with crit builds. That represents a problem with non-crit builds. Tanky builds have a slight edge with the "charge when struck with crit" stuff, but maybe it's more symptomatic of a short-sighted approach to flasks in the first place--and I mean at a fundamental level.

What if instead of gaining charges per monster kill, you gained it for monsters hit (with a cooldown between charge gains)? Then any build could reliably build charges without the "remove XX stuff so YY build doesn't have an advantage" threads.

As a rule, nerfs are not a fun approach to balance, and often tend to do the opposite. Just as an example, I stopped playing League of Legends last year because I was sick of them destroying my favorite champions every time I took the time to learn a new one (and not even the fotm ones either). I understand that sometimes nerfs are warranted, but I severely disagree that this is such a case.

I think the idea of flask charges on stun is interesting but ultimately fails to address the issue of crit being so much more powerful against bosses due to the surgeon's mod. Many bosses are either unwavering or otherwise nearly impossible to stun in practice.

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tackle70 написал:

I think the idea of flask charges on stun is interesting but ultimately fails to address the issue of crit being so much more powerful against bosses due to the surgeon's mod. Many bosses are either unwavering or otherwise nearly impossible to stun in practice.

Unwavering is problematic.
How many of those bosses don't give the player any opportunities to refill their flasks?

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Ashen_Shugar_IV написал:

How many of those bosses don't give the player any opportunities to refill their flasks?

This isn't the issue, though. The issue is the disparity between crit builds with surgeons and non-crit without surgeon's. Yes, most bosses have ads. No, the ads are not enough to even remotely compare to the flask charges gained from surgeon's mod.

Even with flask charge on stun on the ads, it's not going to really compare.

So if you need flask charges, and are given the opportunity to gain them in the majority of cases (no exceptions are forthcoming to my mind), what is the big deal?
A change in tactics or gameplay is too high a price to pay? Cry me a river.

I don't think surgeons flask has that large of an impact on a regular players gameplay. Yes we see it utilized in certain boss fights and depending on the build near or full immunity for elements as long as you can sustain it, but this game isn't all about the boss fights its about all aspects of the game.

Someone suggested in another form to remove this mod AND the max res from the flask, well who the hell would even use the flask then, sometimes I think people just want stuff nerfed because either a) they cant afford to do it or b) they can afford to buy choose not to and instead complain to bring whatever down.

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Ashen_Shugar_IV написал:

So if you need flask charges, and are given the opportunity to gain them in the majority of cases (no exceptions are forthcoming to my mind), what is the big deal?
A change in tactics or gameplay is too high a price to pay? Cry me a river.

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Unwavering is problematic.
How many of those bosses don't give the player any opportunities to refill their flasks?

Well lets take Oversoul as an example. Without multiple projectiles he spawns 8 or so adds. Unless he bugs out and continiously spawns adds whenever you kill the old ones (he wont even submerge).

A normal white mob gives one Flask Charge. I assume Surgeons give one charge per critical attack (regardless of the amount of enemies hit, unlike Volls). This means with the insane Attack-Speed characters achieve filling Flasks is very easy. And there isn't any boss that allows permanent Flask-usage by killing adds. Even with crits you often need two of the same Flask to keep it up permanently (thats about 8,5 Seconds for Res-Flask, enough for 30 Critical Hits, but no boss spawns about 20 Adds in 8,5 Seconds during the whole fight).

Exspecially broken is CoC. Since you use multiple attacks that all can individually proc Flask-Recharges. If I fire one KB or Barrage and get a crit I spawn lots of Frostwalls and one other spell (two with Barrage).

4 Hits of Barrage proc 12 Spells so you can get up to 13 Charges with one attack if all of them crit. There is a reason Atziri is only very rarely beaten by characters using Resolute Technique because they lack the incredible dps but can't sustain the fight, while a Crit Ranger even with just moderate gear is able to kill her because he recharges his flasks very quickly.

Also Surgeons isn't something that can be argued for with jealousy. Rolling Surgeons on a crit is a few alterations. Its just a idiotic mechanic because you simply can only use it if you use the currently strongest mechanic in the meta in the game... so it is likely that this mod has some part in forming this meta.

There's your non-crit version. Recharge 3x when you TAKE a crit. We can all be happy now and talk about other things :)

Also, crit builds SHOULD be better against bosses. How dumb would that be if you go RT, can never deal crits and kill a boss in the same amount of time as a char spec'd for all out dps. Makes no sense, not everything should be equal, it should have trade-offs. And Crit does have tradeoffs.

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trav_dawg написал:

There's your non-crit version. Recharge 3x when you TAKE a crit. We can all be happy now and talk about other things :)

Also, crit builds SHOULD be better against bosses. How dumb would that be if you go RT, can never deal crits and kill a boss in the same amount of time as a char spec'd for all out dps. Makes no sense, not everything should be equal, it should have trade-offs. And Crit does have tradeoffs.

This post makes me /facepalm so hard... nothing in it makes any sense at all. You actually think that taking a critical strike and dealing a critical strike are similar at all? RT should not be viable for a DPS build? Really? Give me a break.