Elemental Proliferation is fine.

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ScrotieMcB написал:

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AlbinosaurusRex написал:

I believe I stated somewhere early in the thread that burn should probably be addressed before Ele Prolif. Only then can you have a fair comparison between the different status effects and compare their power in terms of this gem.

This is what has already happened to shock and freeze. The existence of an OP proliferation has led to the statuses getting nerfed, making play overall more bland and boring.

I don't want to see ignite nerfed. I want to see it buffed, and Shock buffed (undoing the previous nerf), and Freeze buffed. But to do that, Prolif must be reined in.

Burn is currently 20% of initial fire hit per second for 4 seconds. I'd like to see 25% for non-prolif burn and 15% for prolif burn.

I agree with the spirit of what you are saying, but not how you describe it happening. If Prolif makes burn damage gimp compared to non-prolif, it's strictly worse than another support gem that just increases damage or aoe.

That's like saying LMP is ruined by its damage penalty.

It isn't.

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ScrotieMcB написал:

That's like saying LMP is ruined by its damage penalty.

It isn't.

There's a huge difference here.

1. Ignite is the only direct damage status effect, and reducing the damage it does has an opportunity cost of another possible support gem that actually increases damage or aoe.

2. Freeze would be far less reliable/useful under this philosophy, because it already has lower base damage to work with.

3. Shock would be the only thing that seems to benefit from Ele Prolif directly since it just adds a damage multiplier to effected enemies, but it would even do so less reliably.

4. LMP can apply a full scale shock/ignite/freeze while giving up far less than Prolif would have to.

5. LMP is a damage multiplier that scales from base and crit damage in a direct way--not just a small portion indirectly via status effects.

Your point #1 isn't a difference. LMP is also giving up a potential damage-increase support for more "AoE"... and a damage penalty. And I'm not suggesting a fire damage penalty for Prolif, only a burning damage penalty.

The only thing which makes Prolif different is that it's not always about burning, it also effects shock and freeze. But if you're looking strictly at burn Prolif, it is a pure "LMP without penalty" situation.

The supports needs a burning damage penalty. I think it also wants a freeze/shock penalty, combined with a nerf to base freeze and base shock, but that's strictly optional compared to x% less Burning Damage.

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sidtherat написал:

burn prolif builds ARE TOO CHEAP from the skill (player) and skill (ingame) perspective. it takes no effort, gear nor brain-muscle to setup a burn-prolif build. not because of FB but because of prolif that effectively cuts EVERY corner required to setup a working non-prolif burn build

doing e.g. a good Exploding arrow build is really expensive:
up to 6L +3 skill, 25% IAS Thicket bow with extra arrow, lvl 4 empower, extra arrow quiver, second 6L or Kaoms heart, +1 curse corrupted amulet...
Also needs a lot of 20% qual gems to even work a bit.

And still needs a lot of skill not to get 1-shot by reflect, stacking the right amount of charges on the right monster for max clearspeed/safety.
Hell you even can stack 2 different EA setups if you are skilled enough. EA was one of the most diffucult builds I played so far since closed beta...

And still doing less clearspeed with its delayed dmg than a good geared build with direct dmg

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sidtherat написал:

- chance to ignite (no need to raise it above 50% - heck even 40% - in practice as one 'tick' in a pack is all that is needed)

in my experience with exploding arrow and burning arrow trapper, chance to ignite above 50% makes a HUGE difference in clearspeed, especially when fighting bosses

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sidtherat написал:

- fire pen on all targets (only the initial one matters so who cares, even cursing is not really needed for a normal clear)
- burn damage (not needed if mobs are hit for fatal damage in most cases - prolif spreads from weakest/least-resistant to fire mobs anyway)

bullshit!
Fire resist from every monster is applied to the burn dmg and matters A LOT.
Lets say there is a boss with 90% fire resists and next to him is a trashmob with low resists. You hit the trashmob causing 10k burning dmg/s.
Then the 10k/s burning dmg get proliferated to the boss, the 10k/s gets reduced by 90% fire resist -> dealing 1k burning dmg/s to the boss

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sidtherat написал:

prolif is strong in utility role too (spell totem - ice spear - ele prolif - gmp + herald of thunder + crit == entire screen shocked and frozen) but it is not as bad as with burn

spell totem (50% less dmg) - ice spear - ele prolif - gmp (60% less dmg) does NOTHING AT ALL in higher lvl maps because that shitty 4L does way too less dmg especially if you dont specialize on cold dmg and freeze duration.
Nothing will be frozen or shocked besides maybe some low health trash mobs nobody cares about anyway...
Also a good group did already clear the room before you are even finished with the totem casting animation^^
same with burn... a good group already did kill everything before the arrows can even explode...

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sidtherat написал:

you talk about diveristy - this is lame argument when there is currently NO diversity in burn-based builds. you just want to keep the status quo.

There actually is a lot of diversity. there are soo many different burn builds using very different mechanics and a lot of them also even have a crit and a no crit variants.
And there are also much more builds who dont use burn at all and are at least as effective or even more effective...

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ScrotieMcB написал:

But if you're looking strictly at burn Prolif, it is a pure "LMP without penalty" situation.

The supports needs a burning damage penalty. I think it also wants a freeze/shock penalty, combined with a nerf to base freeze and base shock, but that's strictly optional compared to x% less Burning Damage.

No, that is total bullshit!

You use LMP on single target projectile skills which already have a dmg effectiveness > 100%
like e.g. burning arrow or poison arrow or on skills where lmp is another multiplier because of shotgun effect like tornado shot, fireball, freezing pulse, incinerate....

Same with melee splash... you link it with singletarget skills who already have 130% or more effectiveness.
THATS why there is a dmg penalty on LMP and melee splash



Proliferation only spreads shock, freeze and burn status effect. In case of shock and freeze it already lowers your DPS by a lot, because it is basically a wasted slot.

In case of burn, your dps doesn't benefit from attack/castspeed, it already only does 1/5 of hit dmg as base dmg, it is delayed damage over time...

Thats something completely different to LMP...

If prolif must be nerfed for ignite to be buffed, then I'd prefer duration be the target. As such, you could get stronger ignites, but must constantly reapply the status to benefit from the AoE. This'd have a much more significant impact in practice than it might seem on paper.

Actually, and again, if, numerical rebalance were the only recourse, then this is how I'd like to see all ailments treated, as it'd also fulfill the requirements as a pseudo-behavioral rebalance--behavior still being where I believe prolif is imbalanced.

When I make builds I tend to gravitate toward burn prolif because it needs absolutely no aura/herald support to do high damage. This lets me use my mana reservation for high defense. I think moving some of the support gem's power to some kind of herald-style buff might be a good idea.

I don't think freeze prolif or shock prolif is problematic at the moment. Frozen mobs don't leave a corpse, and shock is mostly applied via crits so doesn't need to be prolifed since the stack nerf. Maybe a few support setups use these, at most.

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ScrotieMcB написал:

Your point #1 isn't a difference. LMP is also giving up a potential damage-increase support for more "AoE"... and a damage penalty. And I'm not suggesting a fire damage penalty for Prolif, only a burning damage penalty.

The only thing which makes Prolif different is that it's not always about burning, it also effects shock and freeze. But if you're looking strictly at burn Prolif, it is a pure "LMP without penalty" situation.

The supports needs a burning damage penalty. I think it also wants a freeze/shock penalty, combined with a nerf to base freeze and base shock, but that's strictly optional compared to x% less Burning Damage.

No, LMP is a damage multiplier.

If your base damage is 500, it becomes 350*3. At LMP level 16, it is 455*3. This is still before crits and still not counting spells that can shotgun. Prolif doesn't do this. Even spreading status effects can only equate to more damage once you exceed a certain number of monsters near each other (and this is only true of burn damage--not freeze/shock). Until you reach that threshold, LMP is doing more damage.

The other thing to consider is that LMP doesn't work with all spells--only projectiles--but sometimes they can shotgun (Fireball/Arctic Breath) or have a shotgun-like effect (Lit Arrow/Exp Arrow). That's the counter balance to Prolif working with everything elemental. If you really think it's too strong, this is the area I would look at: Which active gems can/should it support?

The one area I think it's actually a bit absurd is that it works with auras and heralds (especially HoA). I wouldn't even flinch if they made it only work with direct damage active gems instead.

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CanHasPants написал:

If prolif must be nerfed for ignite to be buffed, then I'd prefer duration be the target. As such, you could get stronger ignites, but must constantly reapply the status to benefit from the AoE. This'd have a much more significant impact in practice than it might seem on paper.

Default burn duration is 4 seconds. That's a long time. Nerfing burn duration would have almost zero practical impact on speedrun builds unless it was a crazy strong nerf.

@Albino: You ignite one thing for 500/second. It proliferates to 2 which weren't ignited. You're now dealing 500*3/second. And as your math kinda shows, LMP is OP and needs a nerf bat itaelf.

I have no idea the numbers, but that'd the idea.