Elemental Proliferation is fine.

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Zaanus написал:

Prolif, GMP, LMP, and spell shotgunning are all fine.

God I'm sick of this dismissive comment. People saying they aren't fine are raising actual points. Shut up or address the issues being raised.

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The game is easier than it was in CB/OB if you're talking strictly about CB/OB content.

Yes, because act 3x is known for adding all those slow moving zombies and skeletons to the game making it so difficult. Again, stop arguing in extremes, some areas are harder, some are easier, it's called balance.

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The problem is that as the new content has been added, the things have really raised the "oh bullshit what the fuck was that" factor.

People complained the game was slow so they picked the speed way up. Players are much faster, mobs are much faster, combat is much faster, it's a result of player feedback.

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The game was more player skill oriented back in CB because we were less powerful, but so were the blink-and-you're-in-standard situations we faced. Now being "strong" is more about preparation and minimizing the risk you'll be instripped by horseshit.

How? You guys who say this measure skill so one dimensionally. If you aren't doing more things in combat then it's means less skill. Nevermind all the time spent working on the build (tree is much more diverse now, more REAL options), picking up which skills to use (more viable skills and back then I barely ever found a use for all my sockets, now most build I'm leaving shit off), balancing out gear (you can play odd builds rather than self found cookie cutters) and then simply assessing opponents/packs. CB everything was vanilla, avoid leap slam and rhoas. When facing bosses just avoid the hard ones, or avoid their generally slow nuke attacks and you're fine. Now it's deciding which bosses to skip, which to face, gearing specifically for them, knowing when to use flasks or vaal skills.

You guys minimize all the skill involved in current play because to many things have become automatic but ignoring almost every single boss fight today is more complicated than anything we had in CB. Does anyone think vaal in maze is a hard boss fight? That use to be the peak of showing off how strong your toon was in CB. I'll do double boss on a build I think it's weak now.

There was less to lean on to make a bad build work in CB, but good builds then shit on the content just like they do now, just faster. Which is expected when you factor in much more available and stronger unique, there was one kaoms on the server after the last reset going into OB, now how many drop in the first week of a new league? Lioneyes was BIS bow and going for 20 ex for a while, 5l, now it's 1 ex if you're luck in finding the one bow build that doesn't want to use a harbinger.

The games are different but by no means is one easier or harder than the other. This argument is just flat out stupid and ignores all balance attempts since that time. As balance is meant to level things out, not make them easier or harder.

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The games overall balance is just so freaking bad right now that it's infuriating as a player. The gap between high end and average builds is as far as it's ever been... and that really means that average builds get their shit handed to them on a platter if ggg wants to challenge top builds

Which it should be. Why should an average build be as effective as someone who has spent hundreds if not thousands of hours perfecting one build?

So ya, atziri isn't meant for any randomly slapped together build. It takes the SKILL you're ignoring, along with an understanding on how to build specifically for the fight. Same with hall of grandmasters, a PVE build might get stomped but a PVP focused one shouldn't struggle too much.

Why should an average build be able to crush all content? At that point what is there for people in top gear to do?

This sounds more like personal whining than actual balance.

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Unfortunately, GGG tends to miss the mark whenever they get the nerf bat out.

You're full of vague comments like this. Give examples.

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ScrotieMcB написал:

All of this "is the game harder?" power creep talk is irrelevant.

Prolif turns single-target (and near-single-target) skills into multi-target (or wider-target) skills. As such, it demands a damage penalty.

snip the rest

At this point you're just repeating yourself without actually introducing new reasons. Both sides of the issue are pretty well represented so far (in my view), and it just seems to come down to opinion as the idea of "balance" is pretty arbitrary anyway with no hard metrics to use. I can definitely see where you're coming from, and you answered my questions about the details of it quite well. But if you aren't advocating these changes before Act 4 comes out, then it's best to hold off on advocating them at all until we see if it's still a problem after it does (assuming it really is in the first place--matter of opinion).

This is a nerf that 100% deserves to happen. No maybe.

Yes, shouldn't happen mid-league. But if I'm serious about single- vs multi-target balance (and I am), I need to advocate now, because it would be a major change, GGG would actually have to work on it well before deploying it. A significant number of both buffs and nerfs across a great many skills would need to be coordinated.

Plus, generally speaking, if you expect GGG to turn on a dime on balance issues, what you're going to get back is poorly designed nerfs and/or buffs, due to a lack of testing and/or research. Can't rush good design.

(but regarding desync and several other issues, we've already waited more than long enough)

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ScrotieMcB написал:

This is a nerf that 100% deserves to happen. No maybe.

Just toning down burn damage itself a bit would fix the main issues that Prolif highlights. It actually is fine for shock and freeze--perhaps even deserving a buff. There's lots of room for "maybe," though, in either case.

As for advocating now, short of GGG saying that they intend to rebalance a lot of things alongside the next expansion, they probably won't focus a lot of attention toward this until that is complete. This would be doubly true if they are intending to introduce new skills, supports, triggers, etc (as well as the warcry rework).

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AlbinosaurusRex написал:

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ScrotieMcB написал:

This is a nerf that 100% deserves to happen. No maybe.

Just toning down burn damage itself a bit would fix the main issues that Prolif highlights.

Emphatically no. Every status element except burn has been toned down to a ridiculous extent, and the two main perpetrators have been: spell shotgunning and Prolif. The shit needs to stop. The base status effects need to remain or once again become interesting, and bullshit mechanics in the game need to get a long-deserved nerf.

If the choice is to nerf ignite or nerf Prolif, any choice other than nerf Prolif is just silly.

Although before the choice was nerf shock or nerf spell shotgunning, and GGG went full Tropic Thunder on that one.

Ya I don't expect prolif reworks with act 4, unless they already had that planned a while ago. Generally if they agree with a thread like this we'll see a patch devoted to it about 3-6 months down the road as they clear out the shit already on their list.

Not sure why people hate on shotgunning so much. It's an interesting interaction that is also a fun play style, but it comes with drawbacks of having to be closer to your enemies and often has a very narrow aoe. All in all, I think it's fine. This is why I dislike all these "nerf X; it's OP" threads and discussions--people want to ruin everything fun in the game and make it as generic and boring as possible. Homogenization kills games, and making everything feel weak is the worst kind of it.

As an occassional exception, I can see an argument for spell shotgunning.

For example, since a single cast of Spark projectiles can ricochet in all kinds of random ways, not having Spark shotgun would lead to odd experiences when a spark "misses" (it can be hard to keep track of each individual cast). Plus it has innate multiproj, so it can be explained on the skill gem.

Generally speaking, however, a lack of spell projectile shotgunning should be the rule... and the default. And in no case should a support give a 250% point blank multiplier and better AoE coverage. In general, the best method is to allow only innately multiprojectile spells to shotgun (ex: Spark + LMP isn't a power combo).

In particular, I loathe the spell shotgunning on Freezing Pulse. The skill already has a point blank mechanic built in: the longer the projectile travels, the less damage it deals. Shotgunning there is a case of mechanical overkill which doesn't allow the other point blank mechanic of the skill to feel memorable. (Obviously FP would need a huge buff with shotgunning removed.)

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ScrotieMcB написал:

(Obviously FP would need a huge buff with shotgunning removed.)

Its not just FP that needs buffed, many spells would need a buff that used lmp\gmp they all pretty much would need buffed if you want shotgunning removed.

Again, I don't really see it as mechanically problematic. It's a specific play style with its own pros and cons different from other play styles with their pros and cons.

If a problem exists at all, it's that certain spells that can do it have huge aoe as well (FP as a great example). They could stand to have the aoe radius/width reduced a little in exchange for that shotgun potential, but this is something that would probably have to happen on LMP/GMP, since doing it for each specific gem isn't really practical. The few gems that would be hurt most by it (Fireball, for example) can have theirs increased a little to compensate--which is also a buff for those not using LMP/GMP on it, leading to more build diversity.

A raw nerf needs to carry some kind of benefit to the players or game health, or it's just a nerf, and has the opposite effect. The issues that exist with Prolif are mechanical, not numerical. I don't agree with a raw damage nerf to the gem itself, but fix the issues with resists, corpses, and auras/heralds.