Melee builds are complete trash

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RagnarokChu написал:

If your only going to argue about skills that you have to "bop people over the ahead". Then all of them are nearly functional with no extra utility or mechanics to it, wouldn't it logically make sense that 95% of then are garbage because you would put the best out of all of them?

Uhh... No?

Since you'd give each one a unique aspect of utility when you're giving them utility to push them to being on par with all these skills you don't have to stand on enemies toes to use?

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This is "true melee". Actual move sets, combos, weight to attacks, positioning, speed, reach of each weapon, ect. Ranged in that game is actually extremely difficult to use and dangerous.

A top down character doing an animation is far from "true" melee anyway.

What are you even on mate?

Just because a game isn't a hard core physics driven melee simulator it doesn't have melee?

So we don't have ranged either because you don't need to actually aim bows and account for wind, number of arrows you have left etc...

I'll not even touch the "Ranged in that game is actually extremely difficult to use and dangerous" when bows are the cheesiest thing that ever cheesed the game in Dark Souls series. Only ever outcheesed by Magic in Demon's Souls because literally everything besides 1 single "Boss" (Who was basically a normal enemy with like 20% more life) was weak to magic...

Melee in an ARPG is getting up close and hitting things. There can be many different types of hitting things. But the general theme is that you have to get reasonably close to things before you hit them. Sure you may get a cleave here and a cone attack there. Perhaps even a ranged skill predicated on moving either you, or your target(s) close to each other.

It doesn't need to be 100% totally realistic, Chivalry style weighted attacks with various different swings and blocks/parries to be melee. It merely needs you to use a melee weapon (Or fist/shield) to hit something at a close distance.

For which, ironically, RF is probably the closest thing to a "True Melee" build that's powerful, given it goes around Shield Charging things in the face.

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Snorkle_uk написал:

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tinko92 написал:

You haven't done hundreds of top tier maps as I have. None of you "melee is fine" combined have done as much.

tinko your experience of this game in the last 2 years since ascendacy came out consists of

a lvl90 berserker

a lvl91 gladiator

a lvl95 trickster

a lvl65 assassin


....thats it. Your beserker and gladiator look terrible on paper, I dont see anything that makes me suspect youve played a single decent build be it melee or caster in the last 2 years. That doesnt make you a bad person, that doesnt say a single negative thing about you as an individual, but it does put a massive question mark over your opinions of current game balance between build archetypes.

And it consists of that because melee is trash.

Look man, we've been over this (you analyzing my builds). And yet again you're claiming that my Berserker looks bad.
And Gladiator is almost the same, that Gladiator was ~80% SSF.

Luckily you've removed your gear from almost all characters, you prepared yourself for this kind of shit lmao
EDIT:Oh my, you're actually swapping your Skyforths and shit to every character, aren't you? LMAO

I guess you're completely lost in your 100+ exa builds. You're mixing up non-expensive and bad builds. Get it together.


I never once took shit personal here, so not sure why you're acting up like that but it's funny.
It doesn't put any kind of a question mark. You are putting it, based on nothing at all.

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Seeing as you are so convinced theres major problems why dont you show them to us? Post up some videos of what your casters are doing and then what your melee builds are doing so we can see this disparity from the point of view you are seeing it from? How about that? theres no shame in it, people may criticse the way youve made or played the characters but its just a computer game, its not something that should effect your ego as a human being. Theres games Im terrible at, absolutely terrible, I got no problem admitting that.

So you're telling me that you'd believe the discrepancy between melee and ranged if I put videos that demonstrate that?
Why would you do that if you don't believe the sea of already existing videos?

See, you got nothing. That's why you're demanding proof which is already there, in abundance and for a long time now.

You're trying to make me waste more time on you. That's how you feed on this forum.


Also I never said casters, might wanna stop making stuff up like your buddy there. That kind of stuff is repelling.


Ah, there it is, the internet psychiatrist. Long time no see I guess. I don't have issues with my ego as a human being (lmao). You going ad-hominem because you got shit to say doesn't make it true.
If anything, you're talking about yourself.

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I wouldnt worry about it mate because neither have ppl like sid or tinko etc that you are debating with.

The Trickster was a CI Cyclone that did everything I tried to do with it. I've already told you that in that other thread, you know it and you're still talking trash.

Looks like only garbage comes with your posts. No surprise there.

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Tarille написал:

Melee splash can give more range than Lacerate... Yet it requires you to get into something's face to hit so you can splash off them.

Lacerate lets you just stand 20 yards away and throw your damage at things. It circumvents the typical "Melee" aspect of being in the thick of things. That's why it's hand waved over as "Not Melee"

interesting, and yet despite the fact that I "get into something's face" much more often with my Lacerate build than with other builds, including ones that use Melee Splash, the swan song of "Lacerate is not melee!" continues to resonate through Feedback and Suggestions forever uncontested

perhaps it is because "real poe players" aka streamers all use Increased Area of Effect with their lacerate?

Actually Melee builds are at the very good spot atm. Look at alkaizer, he managed to get to lvl 99 with fucking cleave on fucking SSF withing fucking 10 days if not less. So are really melee builds at the bad spot or maybe you just got spoiled with stupid double dip broken builds or CI VP vinktars immortal builds? Melee is fine, it s the broken meta that needs a fix.

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Uhh... No?

Since you'd give each one a unique aspect of utility when you're giving them utility to push them to being on par with all these skills you don't have to stand on enemies toes to use?

Like what? Give a example, since currently all of them just have an extra side effect that can be easily obtained on any other. Please inform me on the easy magical way that you can give basic autoattacks in a top down arpg games based on fighting hoards of monsters a "unique aspect of utility". Since I can currently combine glacial hammer, infernal blow, both puncture and viper strike, splash, use both weapons, and most other effects by simply wearing a voidheart, playing an slayer, and going dual wield crit with some auras. Making literally almost all basic autoattack builds exactly the same.

Maybe we should revert back to beta and remove a ton of content to make basic autoattacks viable again. Or rework the game to have less freedom between toons.

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What are you even on mate?

Just because a game isn't a hard core physics driven melee simulator it doesn't have melee?

So we don't have ranged either because you don't need to actually aim bows and account for wind, number of arrows you have left etc...

I'll not even touch the "Ranged in that game is actually extremely difficult to use and dangerous" when bows are the cheesiest thing that ever cheesed the game in Dark Souls series. Only ever outcheesed by Magic in Demon's Souls because literally everything besides 1 single "Boss" (Who was basically a normal enemy with like 20% more life) was weak to magic...

Melee in an ARPG is getting up close and hitting things. There can be many different types of hitting things. But the general theme is that you have to get reasonably close to things before you hit them. Sure you may get a cleave here and a cone attack there. Perhaps even a ranged skill predicated on moving either you, or your target(s) close to each other.

It doesn't need to be 100% totally realistic, Chivalry style weighted attacks with various different swings and blocks/parries to be melee. It merely needs you to use a melee weapon (Or fist/shield) to hit something at a close distance.

For which, ironically, RF is probably the closest thing to a "True Melee" build that's powerful, given it goes around Shield Charging things in the face.

If you mean cheese via stand at max ranged and allowing the enemy to not hit you due to AI/mechanics then obviously. I was talking about actual in-game LOL.

What do you mean "what I am on". This game lacks any distinct mechanics or any method to actually different "melee" attacks into actual valid playstyle. Your toon swinging at the air literally is an animation, it doesn't mean anything. Your skill gem is just an method of attack you are using against another monster. Saying that you have to stand next to a monster and hit them with the shortest range possible with 0 frills or special utility/mechanic in absence of skill or playstyle obviously means it's the worst thing to do in the game.

The exact same shit is applicable to ALL other skill gems. Ice spear/Shock Nova/Half of bow attacks/ect are shit because they are just the most basic versions of their type of attack that also has no utility or anything interesting to them. If Ice spears was suddenly buffed by 500% damage then I would just use it over fireball since it does more damage (outside of vaal fire ball).

But in a game like dark souls ice spears would actually be something interesting since the idea of an projectile at a certain distance becoming extra deadly is a workable mechanic to use.

You talk about Chivalry, obviously a game with with much higher complex melee system then PoE will ever have would have better "melee".

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adghar написал:

interesting, and yet despite the fact that I "get into something's face" much more often with my Lacerate build than with other builds, including ones that use Melee Splash, the swan song of "Lacerate is not melee!" continues to resonate through Feedback and Suggestions forever uncontested

Yay, anecdotal evidence!

You've completely changed my mind, I will no longer objectively look at Lacerate and how it functions! /s

I get into melee range on my EA build too. Does that make it melee? Or does it make other Bow skills with multiple screen ranges also able to be classified as melee?

You personally choose to get into melee range when using Lacerate. That does not change the fact that Lacerate, has the intrinsic properties of being able to do damage at range.

Melee Splash REQUIRES you to hit something up close, before you can deal the splash damage to things far away. Since this support only works on skills that don't have a lot of range other than weapon range.

So yeah... Lacerate is not melee. In so far as it's not "Proper Melee" by the generic ARPG terminology. It's only melee in so far as GGG decided to make it locked to melee weapons only and so put the tag on the skill.

They could do that with any skill. I mean, fuck it, they could make Flameblast require a melee weapon and tag it melee. Wouldn't make it any less of a ranged skill.

Please:


1. Stop talking about melee experience on <T13s. No one cares about <T13s. This is EXACTLY why we still have the problem of Volatile Blood in this game - because some of y'all, including devs, are just playing your checkers on T10s running around "it's fine, it's fine!"


2. Stop confusing melee skill with melee range. If you are playing point blank bow build, spell (RF) - yes you are in melee range - but you are building a non-melee skill. You are getting better scaling and better DPS that in turn allows you to build better defense. Full stop. It's that simple. This is the simple reason why tons of people would play BV but would not touch cyclone - BV simply had way higher DPS than cyclone.

If a build with Bino's dagger using Cyclone could get as high damage as the old BV builds - people would be playing cyclone. It's simple as that. This is not rocket science.


3. Melee Splash. The problem is a DAMAGE problem and not an AOE problem. If a skill requires Melee Splash socket it should have higher DPS to compensate. We are not asking for AOE to cover the screen FFS. Of course no one will use these skills when there are other skills getting better damage AND better AOE AND playing at range with less risk.


4. Facts? You want facts? I've asked this question every time and no one can answer: why is there hardly any melee build on Hardcore ladder, EVERY league, for the past 2-3 years? If melee is "fine" -
someone explain that to me


5. Snorkle, get off your little high horsie. You keep harping about people not building melee properly, when the problem is melee just PLAIN SUCKS. Weren't you the one who posted a Chimera video on your CI melee character where you struggling to complete the add phase and resorted to hiding behind totems?

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RagnarokChu написал:

Like what? Give a example

Double Strike - Gives a buff that causes other sources of damage to be doubled too.

Glacial Hammer - Can Freeze + Shatter Bosses

Dual Strike - On hit effects from both weapons apply to both attacks

Etc.

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What do you mean "what I am on". This game lacks any distinct mechanics or any method to actually different "melee" attacks into actual valid playstyle.

That's why I'm saying to bring in mechanics to differentiate melee skills as well as make them good.

There's plenty of ARPG's that have made melee work. PoE is one of the few exceptions where melee is heavily outclassed by ranged/spell (Probably because there's nothing specific to melee... Unlike other ARPG's where you're locked to specific classes and only have access to that classes stuff)

None of these ARPG's where melee both works, and has diversity in different skills being functionally different despite having the same core base (Swing weapon, thing in front of you takes damage), needed to use physics based combat like more dedicated melee combat games such as Dark Souls or Chivalry.

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Tarille написал:

Double Strike - Gives a buff that causes other sources of damage to be doubled too.

Glacial Hammer - Can Freeze + Shatter Bosses

Dual Strike - On hit effects from both weapons apply to both attacks

Etc.

In any other game maybe where I require a large diverse amount of attacks on CD and use them tactically in conjunction with other characters in my party or otherwise like a crpg or similar then sure. The difference between "hitting twice with one weapon" and "once with two" weapons might actually matter.

As of current almost every single effect of an enhanced auto attack melee skill can be all fused together or added into a none "Real melee" attack". Thus making them pointless.

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That's why I'm saying to bring in mechanics to differentiate melee skills as well as make them good.

There's plenty of ARPG's that have made melee work. PoE is one of the few exceptions where melee is heavily outclassed by ranged/spell (Probably because there's nothing specific to melee... Unlike other ARPG's where you're locked to specific classes and only have access to that classes stuff)

None of these ARPG's where melee both works, and has diversity in different skills being functionally different despite having the same core base (Swing weapon, thing in front of you takes damage), needed to use physics based combat like more dedicated melee combat games such as Dark Souls or Chivalry.

Melee is outclassed by ranged in every ARPG unless there are mechanics in play outside of the basic melee attack or a special "melee but not melee skills" or heavily restricted by cost/cool downs. d2 zealots or similar are fucking good because of crushing blow/open wounds/ect, not magically because the basic autoattack is any good.

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tinko92 написал:

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Snorkle_uk написал:

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tinko92 написал:

You haven't done hundreds of top tier maps as I have. None of you "melee is fine" combined have done as much.

tinko your experience of this game in the last 2 years since ascendacy came out consists of

a lvl90 berserker

a lvl91 gladiator

a lvl95 trickster

a lvl65 assassin


....thats it. Your beserker and gladiator look terrible on paper, I dont see anything that makes me suspect youve played a single decent build be it melee or caster in the last 2 years. That doesnt make you a bad person, that doesnt say a single negative thing about you as an individual, but it does put a massive question mark over your opinions of current game balance between build archetypes.

And it consists of that because melee is trash.

But you dont have any experience with casters or bows there either. So you havent played the game enough to give an expert, or even a journeyman opinion because in your expert opinion melee is trash. Ok mate, moving on...

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tinko92 написал:

Look man, we've been over this (you analyzing my builds). And yet again you're claiming that my Berserker looks bad.
And Gladiator is almost the same, that Gladiator was ~80% SSF.

right, the gears terrible yeah, ssf, ok, the passive trees look terrible too. Theyre ssf, sure, but that is still your experience of playing melee over 2 years, that is what you are basing what you are saying on, essentially basing it on virtually nothing you have personally experienced.

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tinko92 написал:

Luckily you've removed your gear from almost all characters, you prepared yourself for this kind of shit lmao
EDIT:Oh my, you're actually swapping your Skyforths and shit to every character, aren't you? LMAO

I guess you're completely lost in your 100+ exa builds. You're mixing up non-expensive and bad builds. Get it together.

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1234566


So you were telling the other guys they haddent played enough, haddent played at high enough levels to comment, and now youre going to tell me Ive played way too much and at too high levels to comment right?

Ive actually played massive amounts of melee builds, casters, bows etc at all levels, in scrubby mostly self found gear in temp leagues through to very high levels of gear. Ive put over 12k hours into this game, Ive extensively experimented with ci, life, armour, evasion, hybrids, blockers, dodgers, leechers, bows, melee, casters, elemental, physical, many different ways of doing these things at all levels of budgets.

You see me commenting on summoner balance? You see me commenting on totem balance? No, because I havent played those things in the current state of the game, I leave commenting on those things to people with actual experience worth talking about. But when I talk about attacks v spells, ranged v melee, I have an awful lot of experience.

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tinko92 написал:

I never once took shit personal here, so not sure why you're acting up like that but it's funny.

Im not suggesting you have, Im simply saying those things to make it very clear Im not trying to shame you or personally attack you, that Im only interested in the actual debate about the balance of the game and not in ego based slagging matches.

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tinko92 написал:

So you're telling me that you'd believe the discrepancy between melee and ranged if I put videos that demonstrate that?

Im saying that if you think you have experienced an imbalance between melee and ranged that you feel so strongly about that you are making all these claims and commenting in so many threads then show us what it is that you are experiencing. You saw X streamer do this and that, youve seen blah blah on youtube, if that is all you are basing your view on current game balance on then your view isnt really worth anything compared to people who have played those builds. If you feel that your actual in game experience qualifies you to make such concrete assertions on current balance between these things, that gives you grounds to challenge people who obviously do have a great deal of first hand experience then show us, let us see what you are seeing that is informing these opinions you have and maybe then we will see where you are coming from.

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tinko92 написал:

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I wouldnt worry about it mate because neither have ppl like sid or tinko etc that you are debating with.

The Trickster was a CI Cyclone that did everything I tried to do with it. I've already told you that in that other thread, you know it and you're still talking trash.

Looks like only garbage comes with your posts. No surprise there.

So your only proper endgame character (not ssf half baked tree bad gear) in the last 2 years was a strict melee range melee skill, and it did everything you tried to do with it.

So what exactly is the problem with melee? You dont have any ranged builds in the last 2 years to compare anything to, all you have is this cyclone char and you say it can do everything you tried to do and as you pointed out earlier youve played a lot of high end content....

Is that your case for melee being bad? Thats your experience of the game that all this stuff you are saying is based on?

I think that speaks for itself.