[3.15] Cold Carrion Golem & Spectre Summoner | Build guides for all budgets |

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kayella написал:


Hm. When using agmp, the projectiles fly to the side as well so 18 seems too much? or do you mean the projectile animation is incorrect?


Nobody has been able to tell. The projectile animation seems to be incorrect in that some projectiles are followed by a second or third dagger in the same line, while others are flying solo.

What we can do is compare dps to other spectres and other builds and roughly calculate dps by looking at the time to kill.

We have tested most spectres with the same gear, and SO's completely blow Primal Crushclaws, Artless and Redemptions out of the water, which they wouldn't if the didn't shotgun based on pob numbers alone.

That comparison is enough to assume that they don't hit only 3 times.


The next question here is why would a. gmp only add 5 projectiles? They are 3 seperate instances of daggers. We believe each instance gets the benefit of gmp.

Assuming they hit between 10-18 times, the theoretical dps seems in line with their time to kill when we factor in boss hp.

If the didn't shotgun a.gmp would be a drastic dps decrease, but in all boss runs it skyrocketed the dps compared to non gmp runs.



The next step is to simply ask GGG what the frick is going on with these guys. Either way they should be be nerfed/adjusted/fixed. Their current powerlevel completely overshadows every other Spectre.
Последняя редакция: Prevy. Время: 12 апр. 2021 г., 5:14:37
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andieg написал:
Looking at this build to try next league but I have to ask. Anyone tried this build on a potato pc? Or is any minion build not suggested on a potato pc?


My PC is absolutely horrendous. I've pretty much used every option under the moon to make the game lagg less. You can watch my high budget 100% delirius map showcases to see what i mean, especially the Canyon one with Harbinger packs.

This is one of the reasons why I play minions since they actually are killing stuff while I'm spazzing out from the frame drops.

That being said, if you're PC is some next level piece of garbage just playing regular maps is hard on it, this build might be too squishy. I've found that however, that one of the primary reasons behind massive framedrops is the amount of monsters on the screen. This build is very effective at instantly killing of huge packs of monsters which drastically reduces the lagg during actual gameplay.
Hi!!! Love your build! have you got any POB of the low budget and mid budget tier? sorry if its in the guide but i dont see em! thx for everything!
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Prevy написал:
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Deadandlivin написал:


My first finding is that it seems like Secret Police Dagger has a "Deadzone". This is a zone where majority of their projectiles won't hit the target.


Thats not a deadzone, its simply their auto-attack zone, where they will switch to melee attacks.

When GGG fixed their AI behaviour earlier this league, they also caused them to use their auto attack more sparingly in melee range. Which is why alot of players started to convocate them directly on the boss because the dps was enough either way.

Before and tbh even right now, the optimal distance is about 10-15 units.

https://pathofexile.fandom.com/wiki/File:Poe-units-72.jpg

Far enough that they wont use autos, but close enough to hit with as many projectiles as possible.

Since its kinda hard to do and both bosses and Spectres move etc, most people don't bother anymore with optimal positioning if they have sufficient damage.


If you watch my videos closely you will see what I mean. Sometimes they will do their spell in melee and you will see the actual projectiles fly out in all directions but they will take very little damage. Then the boss moves away while the spectres keep shooting and suddenly the dps increases.
Watch this video at 20 seconds, 53 seconds and 2 minutes to see what I mean.

Kay just posted a short video that displays this extremely well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5sr-DNxpeg

When the spectre actually meleeing you hear the sound effects and you can see it enemy life actually chunk away.
Then during the last attacks it swaps to casting it's 3 projectiles and literally does zero dps.

If you watch my video where I convocate the spectre right ON TOP of the boss you can also see the dps difference compared to keeping it at a medium/shorter range:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RzQr0VFO3o

I do agree however that one of the inconsistencies of always placing them in melee is that they will start to use their melee attacks sometimes which can make it suboptimal. But the highest dps option against bosses with large models absolutely seems to be to convocate them ontop of an enemy.

Against small bosses this seems to be very bad cause, if I'm correct, the spectres will both use their melee attack and miss with alot of their projectiles.
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OnlyShiroNe написал:
Hi!!! Love your build! have you got any POB of the low budget and mid budget tier? sorry if its in the guide but i dont see em! thx for everything!


There's supposed to be a PoB to both builds at the top of respective guie when you open either the low level or medium level build guides :-)

Open the spoiler and follow the contents. You should find the PoBs at the top there.
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Prevy написал:
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kayella написал:


Hm. When using agmp, the projectiles fly to the side as well so 18 seems too much? or do you mean the projectile animation is incorrect?


Nobody has been able to tell. The projectile animation seems to be incorrect in that some projectiles are followed by a second or third dagger in the same line, while others are flying solo.

What we can do is compare dps to other spectres and other builds and roughly calculate dps by looking at the time to kill.

We have tested most spectres with the same gear, and SO's completely blow Primal Crushclaws, Artless and Redemptions out of the water, which they wouldn't if the didn't shotgun based on pob numbers alone.

That comparison is enough to assume that they don't hit only 3 times.


The next question here is why would a. gmp only add 5 projectiles? They are 3 seperate instances of daggers. We believe each instance gets the benefit of gmp.

Assuming they hit between 10-18 times, the theoretical dps seems in line with their time to kill when we factor in boss hp.

If the didn't shotgun a.gmp would be a drastic dps decrease, but in all boss runs it skyrocketed the dps compared to non gmp runs.



The next step is to simply ask GGG what the frick is going on with these guys. Either way they should be be nerfed/adjusted/fixed. Their current powerlevel completely overshadows every other Spectre.


I did some research on their projectile behaviour in my build mechanics section of the guide but I'll repost my findings here:
ProjectileScaling

The exact way their projectiles scale with multipile projectile support gems seem to follow a very weird pattern. It seems like the amount of projectiles is counted as:

#Projectiles = 2(1 + y) + (1 + y^0)
- Where Y = Additional projectiles from support gem
- Where Y =/= 0 (Because 0 Raised by the power of 0 is undefined)

The formula seems weird but hear me out:
It seems like only 2 of the total 3 Secret police daggers fired by a syndicate operative can fully benefit from a support gem.
The third police dagger seems to cap out at 1 additional projectile, no matter which support gem we use.

As an example, if we use AGMP:
- 2 Projectiles get full benefit from the gem so they fire themself + 5 which gives us:
2(1 + (5)) = 12 projectiles
- The third projectile gets a benefit but caps out at one projectiles. The only way this is possible is if the amount of possible projectiles is raised by the power of 0.
(1 + 5^0) = 2
This gives us a total of 14 projectiles.

This seems to check out for all variations of support gems we choose to use.


No Support: 3 projectiles
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Lesser Volley/LMP: 8 projectiles (Support gives 2 extra)
Скрытый текст

Greater Volley/GMP: 12 projectiles (Support gives 4 extra)
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Awakened GMP: 14 projectiles (Support gives 5 extra).
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In these findings I do find the amount of projectiles and how they fly out consistent. I always count the same amount of projectiles. With AGMP I always counted 14 projectiles, atleast from what I could see.

The projectile behaviour seems to be very consistent meaning, when they shoot their projectiles they always go in the same directions.
Where it becomes weird is the projectiles in the middle right in front of the spectre where you see a huge concentration of projectiles.

It seems like only 2 out of 3 of the original secret police dagger projectiles are able to fully benefit from additional projectile support gems.
The last and third projectile seems to be able to add ONE additional projectile to the total sum. This would explain the amount of projectiles we can see.

It's heavily predicated on my counting of the varius projectiles to be correct though, but I did count multipile times and it always seemed to check out.
3 without gem.
8 with LMP and Lesser Volley
12 with Volley and GMP
14 with AGMP
Последняя редакция: Deadandlivin. Время: 12 апр. 2021 г., 6:29:50
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Deadandlivin написал:

It seems like only 2 out of 3 of the original secret police dagger projectiles are able to fully benefit from additional projectile support gems.
The last and third projectile seems to be able to add ONE additional projectile to the total sum. This would explain the amount of projectiles we can see.


I'd hardly call that consistant behaviour. From the Lua data, their daggers are identical. So 1 dagger not benefitting from gmp seems weird/buggy.

Disregarding our findings, they shouldn't even be able to shotgun to begin with.
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Prevy написал:
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Deadandlivin написал:

It seems like only 2 out of 3 of the original secret police dagger projectiles are able to fully benefit from additional projectile support gems.
The last and third projectile seems to be able to add ONE additional projectile to the total sum. This would explain the amount of projectiles we can see.


I'd hardly call that consistant behaviour. From the Lua data, their daggers are identical. So 1 dagger not benefitting from gmp seems weird/buggy.

Disregarding our findings, they shouldn't even be able to shotgun to begin with.


When I say consistent I simply mean the trajectory of the projectiles. The same 14 projectiles with AGMP always move in the same way and are always grouped the same if I'm not misstaken. So if we know how the projectiles are grouped up and in which direction they are going we can consistently try to position them optimally.

It does check out with the # of projectiles we can see unless I've misscalculated.

Considering they are able to shotgun to begin with, I think it's safe to assume that SO projectiles are pretty buggy :-)
Manifesto Analysis:

After reading the Manifesto it seems like the Budget, Medium and Intermediate versions of the build will be fine since those rely minimally on Harvest Crafting. The end-game mirror tier budget version will obviously have to be scrapped or re-thinked as both harvest and beast splitting is gone.

However, since GGG is effectively removing 100% delirium from the game we won't have a need to push our character to those levels so a top end budget build probably isn't necessary in the game. Once we get to the medium budget we will be able to do everything in the game pretty much, which is kinda sad.

Now for the nerfs:
The build will be targeted by some nerfs, we don't know how big they will be yet but I don't think they will hurt us too much.

- Carrion Golem: This skill gem nerf is probably going to be the biggest, how they nerf it is unknown until tonight. In Heist the damage was nerfed by 20% and tbh, Carrion Golems could still take another hit like that and we won't notice it too much. What makes Carrion Golems vastly superior to other melee minion counter parts is the 50% more multiplier from other minions. Unless they nerf Carrion Golems by more than ~35-40% I still say the build will still be strong because we're still being carried by Spectres aswell. Remember that this build abuses the fact that we can scale 2 Skill Gems at the same time while sacrificing defensives.

- Blade Vortex: The BF nerf mostly likely wont affect us at all as I assume they're going to throw a damage nerf to it. We don't use BV for damage but for its QoL. Nerfs that might affect us is an reduction to it's AoE and a reduction to its skill duration. If the skill duration is reduced to ~3 seconds we might be in trouble.

- Frost Bomb: Frost Bomb is getting a nerf to its exposure effect. Judging by how other exposure effects are working I'll assume they will reduce it by 10% down to -15% cold resistance. This is a minor nerf overall. We might be swapping skill gems and go with a different setup. Some ideas might be running Tri-curses with Awakened Hextouch actually run a Increased Duration/Increased AoE support gem to help BV depending on the nerfs.

- Medium Clusters: Medium clusters are getting reduced Aura effect. This doesn't affect us, we run mediums for Precise and Vengeful Commander. Not general aura effect mods.
These passives might be nerf too though, we don't know yet.

All in all, we defintely got hurt less than other builds.
Aura stacking Carrion Golems will feel these nerfs way more than we will.
Not to mention all other BV builds, self poison, explodey, self-curse, bleed bow builds et.c.
With what we know so far we got away with alot. This is all predicated on how much they nerf Carrion Golems though.



Последняя редакция: Deadandlivin. Время: 13 апр. 2021 г., 5:42:18
Some minor ranting: Personally, I don't like how GGG is handling the Carrion Golem nerfs. The problem with this skill gem isn't the skill itself but everything surrounding it which makes it broken. The skill in itself is basically the best melee golem option(There's 2 in total) which is a skill gem with good single target, medicore clear and a leapslam ability.
The problem with Carrion Golem builds were the scaling surrounding them, specifically Aura Stacking and to some degree maybe Hatred aura scaling too. It doesn't matter how much they nerf Carrion Golems, the minion meta will still be aura stacking. If they destroy Carrion Golems enough people will just swap minions. They'll go with Crushclaw spectres, Zombies or maybe even Ice Golems instead and keep aura stacking. If we look at other builds based on Carrion Golems... they simply weren't that strong.
The Carrion Golem elementalist is nowhere near as busted as aura stacking versions are. When watching and playing Elementalist versions Carrion Golems look fine. My build does ridiculous damage but that's because we're literally sacrificing all defenses and running 2 skill gems at once.
The problem with Aura stacking was that you could easily reach 20+ million damage on a pretty modest budget and still be completely immortal. With more investment it could reach +100 million dps and afk in Maven memory games. You can literally replace Carrion Golems with Zombies and build around them instead reaching similar numbers.

The same thing goes for how they nerfed spectres after Heist. Back then, GGG decided to reduce the level of all spectres by 4, this essentially meant they removed 4 skill levels from all spectre builds. This was to nerf the common meta spectres back then, Crushclaws and Syndicate Operatives. A blanket nerf to all spectres however, is probably the most incompetent way of fixing the problem they could've gone through with. If they wanted to nerf those spectres, then nerf them. All they managed to do was keep them in the meta as all other offmeta spectres were completely obliterated. Remember Slave Drivers and Solar Guards? Yeah...
This nerf was the equivalent of seeing Carrion Golems as too strong and blanket nerf all Golem skills by 40%. It's asinine.

That being said, Aura stacking is getting nerfed too, but I don't think it will have an effect. Most probably, the jewels will go from 3% aura effect to like, 2% or 1%. Aura stacking Carrion Golems will still be immortal.
What they need to hit is how easy it is for the build to reach ~85% max res, 90% phys damage mitigation, 3k ES regen with both evasion and block cap. This is the heart of the problem, specifically the maximum resistance stacking. With high investment these builds reach 90% ele resistance and become completely unkillable. Purity stacking is a problem.
Последняя редакция: Deadandlivin. Время: 13 апр. 2021 г., 5:55:19

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