Crossbow Reload vs Infinite Spear Throws - A Design Mismatch That Undermines Combat Balance

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teobibu#1278 написал:

Unfortunately it is not only the only think that is unfair to Crossbows. Why not having a similar item like quiver used by Bows? Crossbow and Bow are two-handed weapons both but one benefits from extra slot in gear.

And even after buffs of all Crossbows there are still classes that can do double dps with variety of weapons than with crossbow.

+1 Reload time should be removed. There is not only the speed mechanism that need to be improved during battle but also the saving of passive points that are few to spend.

Yeah, I agree, I always feel like if I use a crossbow, it’s like I’m forced to take that one passive just to make the weapon feel decent. It’s not even about build variety anymore, it’s more like a tax for choosing crossbows. Meanwhile, other weapons get to feel smooth and effective without having to bend their whole passive tree just to "fix" the base mechanics.

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Gorbarr#2442 написал:

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Vyend#2601 написал:

The "risk and reward mechanic for each weapon" you described isn't really it though don't you think? There are multiple ways to get charges in the game to empower your spear skills without needing to get closer to enemies or sacrificing defenses to do that like combat frenzy and even sniper mark

And i can't think of any risk and reward mechanic for bows

The general drawback of dex weapons I mentioned is the lack of defense. If you have to use 30 spirit for the minimum combat frenzy that's 30 spirit you're not using for a defensive buff for evasion, armor, or energy shield. Alternatively you could use those defensive spirit skills, and get frenzy charges with up close spear/buckler skills because you can afford getting hit. In theory, that is still a drawback. In practice, unless it's well balanced, it will feel like the only alternative is to invest in ranged glass cannons (and not complain when you don't have any defense or life).

Why would you use spirit for a "defensive" buff if the best defense is actually killing things before they have the chance to do anything to you? Also, using an evasion buff like wind dancer is detrimental when you want to get charges with parry, in order to get up close to generate charges you have to spend a lot of points in stun threshold, armor or health, and the return in doing that is almost 0

Your "drawbacks of dex weapons is the lack of defense" doesn't make sense, the drawbacks aren't tied to the weapons itself, it's more about the game balance overall, the whole point of this discussion is the the difference between the design choice of crossbow and spear throw

Spear throw has no drawbacks while crossbow have, that's is the point

You want more balance to game?
You want more difficulity?
You want more justice?
You want more challenge mode?

Then make all two handed weapons have reload time and not just punishing crossbow style players. Bow,Spear and whatever uses two handed mechanism should act like two handed. Infinity shots from Bow isn't challenge at all.

Also don't seperate Crossbow from benefits it should have from the extra gear slot.

Learn what justice means!

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Vyend#2601 написал:

Spear throw has no drawbacks while crossbow have, that's is the point

Finally, someone gets it, that’s what this whole discussion has been about.

Crossbow before patch 0.2:
– “Alright, I get it. Reload’s clunky, but hey, maybe this is just GGG’s vision™.”

Then patch 0.2 drops:
– “Oh cool, new weapon, the spear. Probably a melee weapon that you can throw, then go pick it up or something, kinda like how crossbow needs to reload, right?”

But nah.
Here comes a melee weapon that also throws like a ranged one...
AND you can spam it like you're pitching fastballs in the major leagues, no reload, no cooldown, no regrets. Just endless spear-chucking action while Crossbow Andy over here is still fumbling with bolts like he's trying to assemble IKEA furniture mid-fight.

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Baggos#7448 написал:

You want more balance to game?
You want more difficulity?
You want more justice?
You want more challenge mode?

Then make all two handed weapons have reload time and not just punishing crossbow style players. Bow,Spear and whatever uses two handed mechanism should act like two handed. Infinity shots from Bow isn't challenge at all.

Also don't seperate Crossbow from benefits it should have from the extra gear slot.

Learn what justice means!

You mean to tell me I need 50 strength and a reload mechanic just to yank back the arms on this heavy metal tactical launcher, while there's a bow user next to me with 0 strength, machine-gunning arrows like Legolas after six shots of espresso?

Like what even is the logic? Drawing a bow takes effort too, my guy. You’d think someone throwing spears or firing rapid shots would need at least some muscle. But nope, Crossbow user? Congrats, you're now the designated slowpoke with gym membership requirements.

It's like, “Here, take this Crossbow. It hits hard, but you have to reload after every thought. Oh, and don’t expect to wear anything cool in your offhand, that slot’s just decorative now.”

Meanwhile bows and spears are out here freeloading on stamina bars, doing Olympic-level gymnastics with one stat point in strength and a dream.

Balance, please.

Jokes aside, if other weapons don’t have a drawback like crossbow reload, then honestly, releasing spear in this state just feels like spitting on the reload mechanic you yourself designed. Come on. It’s not even subtle. You can’t champion "risk vs reward" then drop a weapon that does everything better without the risk.

Either give everyone reloads or start questioning why Crossbow is the only kid in class doing homework while everyone else gets to play dodgeball.

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Twelten#1961 написал:

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Vyend#2601 написал:

Spear throw has no drawbacks while crossbow have, that's is the point

Finally, someone gets it, that’s what this whole discussion has been about.

Crossbow before patch 0.2:
– “Alright, I get it. Reload’s clunky, but hey, maybe this is just GGG’s vision™.”

Then patch 0.2 drops:
– “Oh cool, new weapon, the spear. Probably a melee weapon that you can throw, then go pick it up or something, kinda like how crossbow needs to reload, right?”

But nah.
Here comes a melee weapon that also throws like a ranged one...
AND you can spam it like you're pitching fastballs in the major leagues, no reload, no cooldown, no regrets. Just endless spear-chucking action while Crossbow Andy over here is still fumbling with bolts like he's trying to assemble IKEA furniture mid-fight.

Assembling IKEA furniture is really faster than firing 2 rounds of Crossbow. But who cares bro, they don't want balance in game. One thing that i hate in this game ,is that people is searching for the best fast and dps class to play and don't play what their heart tells them to play. I sticked to Crossbow style from the beginning of the game and i prefer to die with this play style rather than make a round of all classes to find the best.

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Baggos#7448 написал:

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Twelten#1961 написал:

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Vyend#2601 написал:

Spear throw has no drawbacks while crossbow have, that's is the point

Finally, someone gets it, that’s what this whole discussion has been about.

Crossbow before patch 0.2:
– “Alright, I get it. Reload’s clunky, but hey, maybe this is just GGG’s vision™.”

Then patch 0.2 drops:
– “Oh cool, new weapon, the spear. Probably a melee weapon that you can throw, then go pick it up or something, kinda like how crossbow needs to reload, right?”

But nah.
Here comes a melee weapon that also throws like a ranged one...
AND you can spam it like you're pitching fastballs in the major leagues, no reload, no cooldown, no regrets. Just endless spear-chucking action while Crossbow Andy over here is still fumbling with bolts like he's trying to assemble IKEA furniture mid-fight.

Assembling IKEA furniture is really faster than firing 2 rounds of Crossbow. But who cares bro, they don't want balance in game. One thing that i hate in this game ,is that people is searching for the best fast and dps class to play and don't play what their heart tells them to play. I sticked to Crossbow style from the beginning of the game and i prefer to die with this play style rather than make a round of all classes to find the best.

Cheers to you bro, I’m with you on that. I’ve stuck with crossbow like it’s my soulmate in this game. I really tried to understand "GGG’s vision" for it, tried to make peace with the reload, the clunk, the “risk vs reward” talk. But then they drop a spear that basically gives me a gentle slap with a fish and walks off whistling. Like, why even bother giving crossbows a unique identity if you’re gonna throw all that out the window with a shiny, spammy alternative?

When we talk about speed in Crossbow, 95% we talk about Galvanic Shards. This fact reveals how bad designed speed is in Crossbow skills and if we consider reload time as extra punishment then easy justify the reasons to avoid this gamestyle.

Make a poll and you realize from results that players search for fast skills. Galvanic shards is the only fast skill that make wide range damage and that explains why most players use it.

Another reason is to reduse time cost from reloading. If i use Fragmentation of round + reload time, then is better to go for coffee and return for the next round shots....

Seriously now there are almost no option for fast dps in crossbow skills and reload time makes it worse.

Leaving it as be it needs also to bring in game more speed skills,more variation of gems that will haste crossbow use and more gear items to slot. One of them is the missing "quiver" gear item that make bows faster than Flash heroe.

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bobsponge123#5749 написал:

When we talk about speed in Crossbow, 95% we talk about Galvanic Shards. This fact reveals how bad designed speed is in Crossbow skills and if we consider reload time as extra punishment then easy justify the reasons to avoid this gamestyle.

Make a poll and you realize from results that players search for fast skills. Galvanic shards is the only fast skill that make wide range damage and that explains why most players use it.

Another reason is to reduse time cost from reloading. If i use Fragmentation of round + reload time, then is better to go for coffee and return for the next round shots....

Seriously now there are almost no option for fast dps in crossbow skills and reload time makes it worse.

Leaving it as be it needs also to bring in game more speed skills,more variation of gems that will haste crossbow use and more gear items to slot. One of them is the missing "quiver" gear item that make bows faster than Flash heroe.

Forget it bro, no way to give us a poll. They know already the results. It's true that reload time is not they only thing that makes crossbow play style slow. Devs need to bring more skills with speedy mechanisms and with more variation in width angle.

General i didn't noticed any Crossbow player using as a main skill other than Galvanic shards in Endgame. Sadly it is one way option.

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Baggos#7448 написал:

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bobsponge123#5749 написал:

When we talk about speed in Crossbow, 95% we talk about Galvanic Shards. This fact reveals how bad designed speed is in Crossbow skills and if we consider reload time as extra punishment then easy justify the reasons to avoid this gamestyle.

Make a poll and you realize from results that players search for fast skills. Galvanic shards is the only fast skill that make wide range damage and that explains why most players use it.

Another reason is to reduse time cost from reloading. If i use Fragmentation of round + reload time, then is better to go for coffee and return for the next round shots....

Seriously now there are almost no option for fast dps in crossbow skills and reload time makes it worse.

Leaving it as be it needs also to bring in game more speed skills,more variation of gems that will haste crossbow use and more gear items to slot. One of them is the missing "quiver" gear item that make bows faster than Flash heroe.

Forget it bro, no way to give us a poll. They know already the results. It's true that reload time is not they only thing that makes crossbow play style slow. Devs need to bring more skills with speedy mechanisms and with more variation in width angle.

General i didn't noticed any Crossbow player using as a main skill other than Galvanic shards in Endgame. Sadly it is one way option.

Exactly this. If they just remove reload, boom . . problem solved. People would finally start experimenting with other skills like Fragmentation Rounds, Permafrost Bolt, and Incendiary Shot. Why does everyone gravitate toward Galvanic Shards? Because it’s the only one that doesn’t feel like you’re reloading a pirate cannon between every shot.