Lack of Guard/Defensive abilities

Currently the game-play of PoE2 consists mostly of weaving in/out of combat or kiting. We have some abilities that encourage synergistic/'combo' style of game-play, which can be a pain while running around and spamming dodge-roll. Providing a cooldown that gives a window of opportunity to charge in and do damage is what PoE2 is missing, and it's weird that PoE1 (the less 'engaging' game) has this while PoE2 doesn't, since it's a button that you either press reactively, or preemptively and somewhat thoughtfully.

I am not against the vision, but given their description of it, I don't understand their decision to avoid implementing guard skills, and instead implement charms, which trigger automatically. It doesn't make sense.

This is not a PoE2 doom/hate dumping thread, please be constructive.

What do you classify as "guard" abilities?

I get passive bonus Evasion after a dodge roll, bonus Evasion after I get hit, bonus Armour if I haven't been hit recently, and/or bonus Armour if I'm surrounded. For active defense my physical damage Pins enemies, my turrets fire multiple projectiles that Pierce, Maim, Blind, and Knockback and I have a cute little Scarab companion who distracts any leftovers that get close to me. My Ailment Threshold is 13.3k and Stun Threshold is 15k which according to Path of Building makes me effectively un-stunnable by anything except Pinnacle bosses.

I feel pretty guarded at the moment.

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Kerchunk#7797 написал:

What do you classify as "guard" abilities?
I get passive bonus Evasion after a dodge roll, bonus Evasion after I get hit, bonus Armour if I haven't been hit recently, and/or bonus Armour if I'm surrounded.

What you've listed are all passive, and not buttons you press, just like charms. You don't think to use them, they happen for you.

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Kerchunk#7797 написал:

What do you classify as "guard" abilities?
For active defense my physical damage Pins enemies, my turrets fire multiple projectiles that Pierce, Maim, Blind, and Knockback

These are all support gems that enhance your abilities to make the situation more manageable. They provide a way to play defensively, and arguably a way to 'actively' be defensive, which is a bit of a stretch in a lot of cases. They either encourage the weaving/kiting game-play I mentioned before, or passively support a more 'brawler' game-play where you just spam abilities with a bunch of defensive supports, which enable you to face-tank stuff while swinging your weapon and watching your health bar.

Guard abilities are a category of skills in PoE1 https://www.poewiki.net/wiki/Guard_Skill
You actually have to press a separate button to use them. They have short durations, and are limited by a cooldown.

The PoE1 Guard skills have short cooldowns. If they're implemented with a longer cooldowns in PoE2, it would create scenarios where players make meaningful choices in selecting one of the many ways they can be used.

Example from PoE1:

this is a good point actually, one i felt myself. What we need is to have all class have something like Escape Shot from Ranger, only less anemic, Escape shot is extremely slow and useless, but i understand the concept.

we need fast escape skill atleast one of them, with 1 sec i-frame or something.

I'm going to go ahead and say it: if dodge roll doesn't count as active mitigation then I don't know what you people want anymore.

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Kerchunk#7797 написал:

I'm going to go ahead and say it: if dodge roll doesn't count as active mitigation then I don't know what you people want anymore.

I thought I was being pretty clear. I'll try be more succinct.

I want a short duration defensive skill that is limited by a cooldown, but can be used in multiple different ways. (e.g., tanking a slam, charging in, getting away, buying time) Basically a 'Guard' skill with a longer cooldown.

I don't think the other person's complaints/suggestion align much with mine. Dodge roll exists, +there are abilities to help you get away, and we could talk about whether they should be improved, but that's not what I'm talking about. You're half right. Dodge roll serves as a way to play defensively, but I wouldn't call it mitigation, and it mostly supports game-play like kiting or rolling around a boss every 2 seconds.

You can list a bunch of passive nodes and support gems that exist to help you survive, but these aren't exactly what GGG have been marketing. Kind of weird that PoE1 has guard skills, but PoE2 doesn't.

Glossing over this thread extremely quickly, I agree.

From my limited knowledge, Warrior being the go the only choice for defensive comfortably on hardcore mode is an issue and I hope GGG realize that if POE2 is meant to be a game with modern gameplay aspects then other classes need some degree of extreme defensive options, albeit with more risk and flair than the obviously simplistic bruiser/tank Warrior.

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TrunktenUK#3407 написал:

Glossing over this thread extremely quickly, I agree.

From my limited knowledge, Warrior being the go the only choice for defensive comfortably on hardcore mode is an issue and I hope GGG realize that if POE2 is meant to be a game with modern gameplay aspects then other classes need some degree of extreme defensive options, albeit with more risk and flair than the obviously simplistic bruiser/tank Warrior.

Made multiple threads about this already.

No... warriors don't have any defensive abilities either.

Even the ones who seems defensive arent that either:
Shield charge - raise shield while you charge. Not sure if anyone... ever used it as a defensive skill and not as a burst damage...

Resonate Shield - shield is raised while you channel it. TBH... You just want the aoe dmg with armor brake, and replace Raise Shield skill... Once you have Turtle charm it actually weakens you because TC works only on passive block

Magma Shield - Need full fire build to make it effective. And it works when you give up your defense. Yeah... 1v1 maybe you can time it, but when your health is low you don't consider it as defensive ability either... You use it for faster clearance. Well, technically we can consider "defensive" playstyle to kill the enemies... Their damage output is 0 if their hitpoint reaches 0...

Shield wall - this... is technically a claymore mine in disguise. AOE abilities go through it. If it would work as an actual wall it would be gamechanger already.
But any breeze will explode it for more damage, so you actually have to work to keep it up.
Btw... gem level is to put 2 more down?! :D You must have some instance cast speed build to be able to maximize the numbers. And in that build its more than likely you just replace your autoattack with shield wall.
(totem aftershock slamdunk discofloor with shield wall explosion)


And what we have after that?
Leap slam, totem and wall can get gems that heals you 1% of your life/sec
"Aura" spirit gems can regenerate more hp/sec, killing enemies can give you more hp/sec and another spirit gem that just heals you (and removes debuffs, but if its true they want 20+ charm slots/charges that will be a waste of spirit points)
Everything is HP/sec!
The problem that everything gives heal are
- healing is pointless if your hp suddenly goes to the respawn screen trigger point.
- regeneration is so out of scale lategame every enemy dmg is scaled up to oneshotting even a full-defense-focused tank because "how else can you give meaningful gameplay if you just go back to full hp within a second?"

Warbringer have Jade that reduces physical damage 10% potentially, but
- only physical
- I have that skill with a shield that further reduce 5% and 76% armor and I am oneshotted by physical damage...
- on cast it gives Guard... More hp, just to realize even 60% extra hp will result you being oneshotted...

The other issue that its not worth the points. You better off Turtle charm (and its a passive stat that's way overturned, because it just shifts warriors towards shield build only, or more like... armor is as non existent endgame. Since it gives movement penalty, lategame warriors once hitting block cap they change armor to evasion and Energy Shield

Or there's the totem build skill that transfers 20% of any damage to your totem...


And yeah... I would like to see more defensive and counter-measuring skills.
A few suggestions:
- Holy Descend Support gem should reduce damage with the ground buff Or have a version that reduces damage, maybe both? Or one for each elemental type? However not a big fan of this, because stoping just to replace gems for enemy type is not a fun thing to do. Unless... its one of those hold cast and pick elemental on a "wheel"

- Shield wall should work as a wall. Often I die because I put the wall down as a reflex, but the damage hits everything. (and have a gem that disables detonation? My build barely have slams, but for other builds it should be a must)
Yeah... I would like to see possible that putting 4 (or 6 walls with massive cast speed buffs) that you would be able to survive the oneshot-aoe mechanics.

Speaking of Shield wall: a gem that would give it range so I can cast it around enemies.
More gameplay and combo options here. Enemies that tries to keep distance: you go in their face and cast a wall behind them.
Use the circle upgrade gem and you make death trap. (same way as rares cast flame wall around you)
+ A skill and mechanic that revolves around knockback and wall collision. You bash the enemies into a wall for extra damage, useable in dungeon maps and if you have... a wall. :D
- Heres another idea: With a support gem Shield wall absorbs damage that you have to explode in the enemy face. Want meaningful gameplay? If the enemies fulfill the wall hp it will explode in your face with reduced damage.

- Throw shield
Deals damage, Delays enemy attack, you must pick shield up or channel skill to summon shield back.
This needs some coding, but if you're close to the enemy it will bounce far.
Not as if its a problem with leap slam but give some meaningful gameplay to it.

If were at it, why not simple throw off hand weapon? Thinking about dual wielding specs.

Warriors disengage and dislocation abilities?
A slam that not straight knocks enemies away, but move them to certain location?
Thinking about a combo where you put Hammer of God and slams the enemies into HoG area...

- We need a warcry that reduces enemy damage.
+ a support gem that reduces or increases enemy attack speed. (yes... as a thorn build I want them to hit me faster XD )

- A ranged earthquake-like spell that disarms enemies (something to react to those oneshot slam abilities, and archer type enemies)

- Wheres the good old boring warrior cliche skill?
On cast you get reduced damage, but also deal less damage.

- Berzerker Spirit
That needs some Guard mechanic from overhead and on cast it should give you berserker rage: lets say you're immune to damage (or drastically reduce) while you have rage, but wont be able to get rage for a few seconds. "too angry to die"
With support gems you could move to playstyles.

I can make it more grimdark:
- Berzerker headbutt:
You use your built-up rage to reduce enemy damage. On second cast you take a bite from the enemy. 3rd cast you spit the chunk into the enemy face for crit XD
Or give them concussion: daze them (improved stun buildup)

Disarm enemies? (literally)

Distrupting shout:
Slows enemy cast and attack down?

And this is only warrior since this is what I played so far.
Majority of the ideas doesn't even need anything new, just tweaking numbers and parameters.

But since GGG likes to throw out "meaningful gameplay" defensive gems could have their own minigames.
I try to give most abilities some downside or extra efforts. Its not an "lul, Imahgod, I win button"
But even if that would be the case, cooldown or conditions are the answers.