The problem with Exalted Orbs

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goetzjam написал:

I can assure you, if you spend more of your time in endgame maps and less leveling alts, you will see exalts drop, 10 is probably high, but that statement was more in line to say I've seen an increase in drop rates.

Ok than i maybe just missunderstood ur statement.

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goetzjam написал:

Fixed rate will never happen. GGG will never add an exalt rate because it goes against the idea of a "free flowing" economy.

I wouldnt be that sure about that. A while ago, some ppl said that GGG wont implement another loot allocations and even chris himself said, in the latest Q&A that Permanent Loot allocation was a big compromise to their original game idea. SO maybe we will see another big compromise in the future =) *hope*

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goetzjam написал:

In regards to taking much more fusings\jewelers that also means you can BUY that much more when its high. Your only looking at the negatives, not the positives.

Yes, i do. Since i dont craft, except from some master mods to fill gear gaps.

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goetzjam написал:

I mean exalts should be special, creating a vendor recipe or any ability to buy exalts for a set price removes what makes them special.

Yes they should be special and a vendor recipe wouldnt remove since it wont change the mechanic of that Orb. If u dont craft with them, exalts are just "nice-to-have" nothing more. Since many seller, in my experience, will take pure exalts instant, but tend to think about ur offer if u offer the exact same amount in mix currency (fuses,alchs,chaos)

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goetzjam написал:

The value is skyrocking for multiple reasons, which is MUCH worst in warbands then it is in tempest or standard.

Maybe its just a Warbands phenomenon and will get better in the next league.

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goetzjam написал:

Exalted is powerful and great, but creating a fixed rate is stupid as hell. I can't explain how stupid it is, until I know exactly how long you play and what you actually try to do to make currency.

I dont know what that has to do with this discusion, but if u wanna know i play since 17.12.2011 (closed beta)

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goetzjam написал:

Exalted needs to remain rare in order to retain its power and specialness, fixed rate removes that and creates a homogonized system.

fixed rate never bothered Jeweller or Fusings for example. And again a fixed rate doesnt take away the mechanic of the orb, which i would describe as his "power & Specialness" since no orb does the same thing twice in PoE. From Wisdom Scrolls up to Mirrors of Kalandra, every currency has its on mechanic only this specific currency can do and nothing else. SO exalts are not different than all the others.

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goetzjam написал:

Those items that are now 10ex and out of your reach, might easily cost 100ex in a system in which exalts had a recipe,

Maybe, but thats only one possiblility, it could also stabilize the market. But we will find out in the future.

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goetzjam написал:

how exactly is that saving you any work, effort, ect when it takes the same time to make the currency needed to buy that item?

How exactly is it saving me work , when my non-exalt currency gets devalued more and more ?

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goetzjam написал:

Again anyone arguing for a recipe is completely neglecting any and all downsides

Maybe and any1 arguing against a recipe is also negleting any and all of its possible upsides.

kerze123

Eh, the funny thing is that for all the effort that GGG put into trying to not making a currency, PoE does actually have a currency, and its exalteds. Exalteds are basically the real life version of gold, an item that has very little value apart from niche cases (in real life, basically jewelry and some rare industrial applications), but was mainly used because of its rarity for value.

This is honestly bound to happen, people find that putting values on items and commoditising them are by far the most efficient way to acquire items, and to put a price on items people always find a currency which tends to mimic something that is very rare but has little real value.

Historically the biggest problem with exalted's is that their inherit value is not proportional to their drop rate, which is what has turned them into a currency. GGG's reasoning for doing this was because they didn't want people to craft epic items. This may have been a concern with Eternals, but now with Eternals gone, it should be appropriate at looking at buffing exalted's in some way

Having masters require exatled's for their epic mods is a good step in the right direction as well

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I can assure you, if you spend more of your time in endgame maps and less leveling alts, you will see exalts drop, 10 is probably high, but that statement was more in line to say I've seen an increase in drop rates.

Well not to that extend. If you just play merciless the droprate in maps is simply by the factor of the quantity on the map higher. I leveled quite a few chars already in 2.0 and the currency drops don't seem to change as long as you are within the level range and don't get a penalty. I dropped 25% of my exalts (thats 1^^) and my only eternal in a race.

The chances in merciless are higher due to the higher mob-density and in maps even more so with the added quantity. But the base is always the same so you shouldn't see more than 3 times more exalts in maps than outside.

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Fixed rate will never happen. GGG will never add an exalt rate because it goes against the idea of a "free flowing" economy. When the exalt is worth so much chaos, getting one to drop is that much rewarding and the cost of items typically decreases as a result. Things that were 1ex are now 50c or whatever the proportionate rate is, it takes time of course.

Well the thing is most items got more expensive with the exalts. By simple reasoning 6ls should be a lot cheaper around 3-4 exalts now, but a lot are still way higher despite having only mediocre stats, it's simply because people are too used to those prices and since they are in exalts they stay that way. On the other hand there ware people exspecially selling 2h weapons for 20 chaos, which is barely the divine they are worth.

Not to mention that there are already fixed rates for a lot of currencies and some of them are only there to ensure a certain exchange rate. You can trade regrets for Alcs... this means a regret will always be at least one alc worth. This has no effect on the economy in any way shape or form unless the ratio actually drops that low.

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Yes, people have nothing else to horde and it now is the "highest" cost orb in crafting (aside from actually mirroring an item) The value is skyrocking for multiple reasons, which is MUCH worst in warbands then it is in tempest or standard.

Well standard simply has a very saturated economy and there are still eternals to work with. There isn't really a reason why standard should behave differently than Warbands in the long run. Tempest is a bit different, it offers a lot of divines due to corrupting tempests and likely has other economical influences. Warbands however is basically just standard with a fresh economy.



Of course a recipe wouldn't change because it would be one of two kind:

1. It could be a recipe similar to the regret -> alc with something like 200c = 1ex and we are still far away from that rate, the recipe would simply keep the exchange rate from going that high, which isn't a bad thing, but wouldn't change anything right now

2. The recipe would be a direct upgrade like Alt -> Jew -> Fus with a rate lower or similar than the current one. It could be 1ex <- 4div <- 20c this would mean that its either below the current exchange rate or simply dry the market of chaos orbs because there is no reason to not upgrade them. It is quite similar to jewelers and alts which you always want to upgrade because the fusing is the most used one of them and easier to handle in trading (although alts are quite useful for lower tier trading). Again this recipe wouldn't change anything it would just mean that instead of person A trading exalts to B, A would simply upgrade the orb. This would be useful for most high end players, because they have an easier time converting useless chaos orbs to exalts, while it would likely hurt anybody that doesn't get much exalts to drop if they actually do drop one, because they are nothing more than 80c, but even than its not that big of a deal.

In the end both versions wouldn't change much, the biggest change for Nr. 2 would be the removal of flipping exalts for a net-gain since the trading component would be removed and you would just upgrade your chaos once you have enough of them instead of searching for someone to trade with at a decent rate. It would make it easier to focus on the actual fun things instead of trading. Of course it would increase the total amount of Exalts existing, which could be good or bad, but a simply increase to the meta-mod prices would be an easy way to fix that.

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Emphasy написал:

Of course a recipe wouldn't change because it would be one of two kind:

1. It could be a recipe similar to the regret -> alc with something like 200c = 1ex and we are still far away from that rate, the recipe would simply keep the exchange rate from going that high, which isn't a bad thing, but wouldn't change anything right now

2. The recipe would be a direct upgrade like Alt -> Jew -> Fus with a rate lower or similar than the current one. It could be 1ex <- 4div <- 20c this would mean that its either below the current exchange rate or simply dry the market of chaos orbs because there is no reason to not upgrade them. It is quite similar to jewelers and alts which you always want to upgrade because the fusing is the most used one of them and easier to handle in trading (although alts are quite useful for lower tier trading). Again this recipe wouldn't change anything it would just mean that instead of person A trading exalts to B, A would simply upgrade the orb. This would be useful for most high end players, because they have an easier time converting useless chaos orbs to exalts, while it would likely hurt anybody that doesn't get much exalts to drop if they actually do drop one, because they are nothing more than 80c, but even than its not that big of a deal.

In the end both versions wouldn't change much, the biggest change for Nr. 2 would be the removal of flipping exalts for a net-gain since the trading component would be removed and you would just upgrade your chaos once you have enough of them instead of searching for someone to trade with at a decent rate. It would make it easier to focus on the actual fun things instead of trading. Of course it would increase the total amount of Exalts existing, which could be good or bad, but a simply increase to the meta-mod prices would be an easy way to fix that.

Finaly some1 on my side *yaay*. Ur suggestion Nr. 2 is exactly what i would like to have. I couldnt describe it any better. Hopefully GGG reads ur suggestion and do something or the same like that.
kerze123

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goetzjam написал:

Do you even understand what exalted orbs do?

There should absolutely be no way to convert chaos to exalts from any vendor, under any circumstance.

Because that would spoil the insider trading racket. Heaven forbid we ever see a legit economy with fully convertible currencies.

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RogueMage написал:

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goetzjam написал:

Do you even understand what exalted orbs do?

There should absolutely be no way to convert chaos to exalts from any vendor, under any circumstance.

Because that would spoil the insider trading racket. Heaven forbid we ever see a legit economy with fully convertible currencies.

Has nothing to do with the "trading racket" it has to do with what exalted orbs do. If they werent as powerful as they are now I'd have no issue if they created a recipe, the problem is they are the end all crafting orb, so why would that orb have a recipe it make it so every single craft is a fixed calculated cost, vs what it should be, which is a random\flexible cost so it doesn't upset the value of items.


It cracks me up that people make arugments like it should of had a recipe all along, no it shouldn't of it has worked fine WITH eternals since they were added, only after GGG removes an orb is the balance of this upset. Perhaps you all are arguing for the wrong thing here, do you always opt to change something instead of revert it?

Add a 100 chaos recipe it won't change anything, but adding a fixed cost to all crafting just makes crafting in poe "gold based" crafting. We might as well just convert to gold based economy then, don't said its any different because if every orb has a fixed cost going to any other orb all the way up to the highest orb then there is no difference in the economy you are suggesting and one that is gold based.

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goetzjam написал:

We might as well just convert to gold based economy then.

Wow, Goetz making sense.

Sadly, GGG have some other weird idea, complete with contradicting design upon contradicting design, as usual.

There should not be a formula for converting other currency to Exalts.

There maybe should be a formula for converting items into Exalts. For example, a full set of uniques itemlevel 75+ (like the full set of rares formula for Regals, but uniques). I don't know if identification or quality should be factors or not, but something like that would add a lot of Exalts to the economy, as well as a nice collecting minigame.

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TheAnuhart написал:

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goetzjam написал:

We might as well just convert to gold based economy then.

Wow, Goetz making sense.

Sadly, GGG have some other weird idea, complete with contradicting design upon contradicting design, as usual.

You understand that i made that statement to be sarcastic as in its a bad idea.

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goetzjam написал:

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TheAnuhart написал:

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goetzjam написал:

We might as well just convert to gold based economy then.

Wow, Goetz making sense.

Sadly, GGG have some other weird idea, complete with contradicting design upon contradicting design, as usual.

You understand that i made that statement to be sarcastic as in its a bad idea.

Oh, my bad.

I'd better correct what I said. ~ Goatz not making sense as usual.