VP was never the problem

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Kastmar написал:

Solution is easy. Make Instant leech melee attack only.

I like this guy.

Since i dont really live on these forums, i am going to miss a lot of angry replies to this post, and i am sorry for that. The lost entertainment derived from me for that, truly hurts.

That said, all that shit about reflect beeing an issue , or the content beeing too hard or one shots or whatever else fucking reason you people conjure up. None of that justifies VP, not because it is stronger than all the other defensive mechanics nor that you need a sufficiently strong defense to conquer all content. That stuff is super obvious.

The issue with VP is skillpoint economy. "I need only spend 6-12 passives to get evasion/armor to a workable treshhold, so really powerful gear trivializes content!" Is infinitely worse than :"My offense also scales my defense. It takes one passive."

And literally anything that you say in defense to this makes you an idiot.

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Kastmar написал:

Solution is easy. Make Instant leech melee attack only.

Why should it work with sunder but not with glacial cascade?

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CaptainWARLORD написал:

Wanna know some real facts, not some talking-out-of-my-ass facts?

VP was the number 1 node used on all characters in Harbinger league. Source

VP is not something you want in HC, that is known and backed up by statistics.

If it's the best defense, I wonder why nobody wants it in HC. Must be some idiots who don't know anything.

youve made a case here for vp not being the best defense, and I agree with you, but most of the forum has been disagreeing with us for a year and a half so here we are.

Earlier you were making a case for vp being essential and you couldnt survive or make the builds without it, which I didnt agree with, because Im actually consistent with my opinions. You seem to be on the "say whatever it takes to make the case for keeping my facetank shaper beam node" mode, even if that changes and contradicts itself page by page. First it was essential to survive and make builds, and then when that didnt stick its become an inferior survival tool to the other options and thats why it shouldnt be changed.


I dont chain shaped strands btw, I have basically a full atlas unlock. Given the claims youve made in this thread about what is viable without vaal pact I think Im more than informed enough to have a discussion with you about the subject, though i think its pretty obvious at this point its a waste of time.

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LaiTash написал:

Yeah there are skills that force you take VP - like frost blades or tornado shot. These are also the skills that force you to concentrate on the right side of skilldrasil with no other good defence options. And the number of people using them is underwhelming.

I run around on standard playing frostblades with a 550pdps mirrored dagger, full ele conversion, no vp, no problems, literally never die. I play tornado shot with a 500pdps bow, also no vp, also never dies. Why would those skills force you to take vp? Reflect?

If youre talking reflect you just evade and dodge your own reflect damage, I wouldnt even think twice before just hammering through reflect rares like they were trash mobs. Whats the deal? Are people playing lycosade builds with no evasion or dodge worth talking about? Is that whats going on here? If thats what were looking at then vendor that trash shield, get a proper 1300+ evasion shield, get the full 5 node acrobatics, take it easy on the accuracy rating and youll be fine.

personally I think right side attack builds have the best defenses in the entire game right now, without even counting vaal pact amoung them. Armour can be replaced easier than evasion, the only thing that can really replace evasion is block and you can go block + full armour better by going gladiator then hugging hard right on the tree, using evasion gear with iron reflexes and being a crit build with more dps and hatred freezing. Otherwise you can use phys to ele items, basalt, cwdt ic, artic armour, base endurance, fortify, enfeeble etc to replace armours phys damage reduction and then stack evasion and dodge on top of it. I think you get a more rounded defense for less investment while being in a higher dps area that serves crit swords, daggers, claws, bows and wands.

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Snorkle_uk написал:

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LaiTash написал:

Yeah there are skills that force you take VP - like frost blades or tornado shot. These are also the skills that force you to concentrate on the right side of skilldrasil with no other good defence options. And the number of people using them is underwhelming.

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I run around on standard playing frostblades with a 550pdps mirrored dagger, full ele conversion, no vp, no problems, literally never die. I play tornado shot with a 500pdps bow, also no vp, also never dies. Why would those skills force you to take vp? Reflect?

Well it depends. How much DPS can you do with those mirrored items? How much EHP do you have - HC folk won't take anything with less than 7000 even if you say it's immortal ESPECIALLY if evasion/dodge is your main defence. Because it can't save you from flameblast pizzas and stuff like that. So it goes like: screw evasion - flasks will do fine, take as much life nodes as you can, take dodge, and spend what's little left on damage.

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LaiTash написал:

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Snorkle_uk написал:

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LaiTash написал:

Yeah there are skills that force you take VP - like frost blades or tornado shot. These are also the skills that force you to concentrate on the right side of skilldrasil with no other good defence options. And the number of people using them is underwhelming.

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I run around on standard playing frostblades with a 550pdps mirrored dagger, full ele conversion, no vp, no problems, literally never die. I play tornado shot with a 500pdps bow, also no vp, also never dies. Why would those skills force you to take vp? Reflect?

Well it depends. How much DPS can you do with those mirrored items? How much EHP do you have - HC folk won't take anything with less than 7000 even if you say it's immortal ESPECIALLY if evasion/dodge is your main defence. Because it can't save you from flameblast pizzas and stuff like that. So it goes like: screw evasion - flasks will do fine, take as much life nodes as you can, take dodge, and spend what's little left on damage.

I have 7k life on my frostblade raider. I have a lightning coil, arctic armour, I keep up my endurance charges with endu cry, taste of hate, basalt flask, cwdt enfeeble, 18k evasion, 46% dodge, 40% spell dodge, 3.6% regen, about 18% block and some fairly insignificant trace amounts of armour, less than 2k.

I have the same passive approach, my tree is life nodes, a couple of leech nodes in the duelist, 5 points in acro and then everything else left over is dps, it has 4 jewel slots which are all life + damage mods, I dont use the threshold jewel or the tree conversion, I use a phys to lightning gem.

I dont spend any points on evasion it just comes with your life nodes and % ring crafts. Apart from the dodge those defenses are all just gearing options, why screw evasion when I already have all the evasion % I need from the tree on my life nodes? The ev from starkonjas, coil and my shield with a small amount on gloves and boots are enough to have 18k evasion. AA is a gem, ec is a gem, cwdt enfeeble is a gem. Starkonjas is 1 chaos, lightning coil is 1 chaos, I got a 1400 ev + life shield in harbinger for 1 chaos, the bench evasion on rings is 4 chaos, I can take off my dagger and replace it with a 1 chaos binos, take off my ToH flask entirely and still smash through red maps and could still take down guardians deathless all day, it just adds a minute or 2 to the fight. At the point where I got my ev shield for 1 chaos lycosades were about 18c each, I could get the shield, the hat, the weapon and the chest for 4 chaos in a league.

Its not expensive to do and it doesnt involve reallocating passives from life or damage into defense %s, its not even a great build that does anything impressive at all its just a very basic, generic setup thats imo completely unremarkable. VP would probably cost me 2 passive points because I have revenge of the hunted, if I wanted more dps I would have to drop life for it on either the tree or items. Thats the compromise in the build, losing damage to get life, the defenses havent cost anything other than my willingness to have them.

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CaptainWARLORD написал:

And once you go glass cannon in this game, you don't go back to anything else.

well, YOU obviously wont, Ive played plenty of glass cannon characters over the years and have been left thinking "why would I want to play this crap ever again?"

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CaptainWARLORD написал:

I also play actual melee, not pseudo-melee Sunder, where I have to actually hit stuff first eye to eye. That makes instant Leech a must have and the only option if you want to have a budget build.

I disagree.

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CaptainWARLORD написал:

If I had been forced to play differently, I'd have built full Evasion with perhaps Dreamfeather, but such shit is costly when you need high Evasion items.

that doesnt sound expensive at all, evasion items are cheap, it just sounds defensively terrible.

In 3.1 selfcast will be straight up unvaible. A lot of selfcast templar/witch/shadow/berseker went there simply to have instant leech while getting other nice stuff in the way. Now that it is in the slayer place is going to be a pain to play self cast. Mayhem will probably be the last league i play EK inquisitor as the build simply won't work without fast leech as there is no other way of fast recovery from the current monster damage. Not to say reflect damage is instant and leech won't be in 3.1.

The next patch will bring a lot of new approaches to the game in therms of builds will be a good time

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Snorkle_uk написал:

I run around on standard playing frostblades with a 550pdps mirrored dagger, full ele conversion, no vp, no problems, literally never die. I play tornado shot with a 500pdps bow, also no vp, also never dies.

You dont die cause you kill monsters before they hit you.