VP was never the problem

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CaptainWARLORD написал:

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Xavathos написал:

Any 6L is 7ex. If you're going to argue like that, you may as well stop.

Tabula is ~16c. Any normal 6L rare can be bought for ~20c upwards.

If you're going to argue like that, you may as well stop.

You know nothing, Jon Snow.

Well, there you go Einstein. You can use a Tabula then!
Problem solved. Next.

There are a lot of people speaking for 'everybody' in this thread - more than usual. Two people already said it best on the first page:

If Vaal Pact is the one thing that makes or breaks your build, it's not an XXX build but a Vaal Pact build. There wasn't build diversity to begin with, only the illusion of it.

Builds are leaves on poe tree: they fall every patch and they grow again every league.

99% of the whiners will keep playing. 100% of them will move on to the newest, fastest, most OP-and-obviously-getting-nerfed build. and 100% of them will be back at the next nerfing time saying the same shit we always hear. "Ruining every build, ruining every fun build, people will quit in droves, omg world ending, sky falling, ajsodfiaheifandiaoifjaewQQ".

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innervation написал:

There are a lot of people speaking for 'everybody' in this thread - more than usual. Two people already said it best on the first page:

If Vaal Pact is the one thing that makes or breaks your build, it's not an XXX build but a Vaal Pact build. There wasn't build diversity to begin with, only the illusion of it.

Builds are leaves on poe tree: they fall every patch and they grow again every league.

99% of the whiners will keep playing. 100% of them will move on to the newest, fastest, most OP-and-obviously-getting-nerfed build. and 100% of them will be back at the next nerfing time saying the same shit we always hear. "Ruining every build, ruining every fun build, people will quit in droves, omg world ending, sky falling, ajsodfiaheifandiaoifjaewQQ".

You're getting old too, huh? I know the feeling. Those damn kids skating on the sidewalk. :P

Sometimes it sucks to be right.

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CaptainWARLORD написал:

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Snorkle_uk написал:

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CaptainWARLORD написал:

If I had been forced to play differently, I'd have built full Evasion with perhaps Dreamfeather, but such shit is costly when you need high Evasion items.

that doesnt sound expensive at all, evasion items are cheap, it just sounds defensively terrible.

Right. Full Evasion with Dodge and Dual Wield for a little Block... right.

Queen of the Forest 6L alone is at least 7 ex. That's already more expensive than what I spent on my entire gear. It's pointless talking to you. You seem like the expert of experts. If experts were 3 yr old kids judging how good a lollipop tastes.

A 2k evasion, 90 life, tri res 6L rare ev chest is 2 exalts. High evasion items arnt expensive, which is the point I made. A qotf is more expensive yes, but a 6L belly is 6ex right now so youre not comparing prices now, youre using what a belly cost back then and what a queen costs now which is meaningless. Both options are defensively bad, QotF or an evasion rare are pretty terrible in terms of defense. You can get a coil for 3ex that is better than a belly, a qotf or a rare ev chest in terms of defense, miles better, so if youre trying to make a point that its expensive to make a viable character in that area that isnt vaal pact Im not seeing it.

Im also a little skeptical about your comments about what is viable to survive and then saying ud make a pure evasion dual wield dodge melee character, which is a defensive black hole. Theres defense setups that are good, average, and bad, thats definitely deep in the bad camp. Pure evasion dodge with no shield using an evasion chest that has 70 life? I think it would take effort to think of a worse idea in terms of defense. If that was even close to being an example of decent defenses in the game youd probably have a point about how necessary vaal pact is.

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toyotatundra написал:

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Snorkle_uk написал:

I run around on standard playing frostblades with a 550pdps mirrored dagger, full ele conversion, no vp, no problems, literally never die. I play tornado shot with a 500pdps bow, also no vp, also never dies.

You dont die cause you kill monsters before they hit you.

no, for a start we were talking about reflect so its got nothing to do with monster damage. Re mob damage Ive stuck on a 1 chaos dagger, taken off my ToH flask and gone and fought guardians, Ive stood there and tanked guardians for 5 minutes at point blank with wildstrike. You think monsters in maps do more damage than guardians? If you have defenses monsters in maps are a joke, they will never kill you and I think you know that already so I dunno why you make a comment like that. If chimera just cycled his phases infinitely I could fight him with a 1 chaos weapon endlessly for a year without dying, got nothing to do with killing things before you get hit.

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CaptainWARLORD написал:

I honestly don't even care. Pretty much every build of mine is now dead.

CWC Tank = DEAD

Wild Strike Raider = DEAD

Molten Strike Boss Killer = DEAD

Scourge Flurry Scion = DEAD

Kitava's Frostbolt Assassin = DEAD

And the list goes on. I won't be pigeonholed into Summoner or Slayer. Fuck this.

I said it before and I keep my word. This is where I stop all support and playing.

Have fun playing logout mini-games sprinkled with one-shots on top.

+1

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CaptainWARLORD написал:

Guess I just love argueing.

Please don't stop because

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I enjoy watching idiots destroy their own game.

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Snorkle_uk написал:

I dont spend any points on evasion it just comes with your life nodes and % ring crafts.

So you're using the expensive items to skyrocket your evasion, good for you. That's with LC that forces you to seek additional 60% lightning res somewhere while giving no resists at all. Neither does your helmet. So i need rings with like +100% resists, enough file, %evasion, and probably +phys damage because i don't have access to mirrored daggers in a temp league. I don't want to know how much would it cost me. And most certainly i'll never get stuff like that in SSF. In fact, i'll probably never lay my hands on LC or starkonja's. All while people running totems with kaom's and MoM and just don't care.

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Snorkle_uk написал:

Ive stood there and tanked guardians for 5 minutes at point blank with wildstrike. You think monsters in maps do more damage than guardians? If you have defenses monsters in maps are a joke, they will never kill you and I think you know that already so I dunno why you make a comment like that. If chimera just cycled his phases infinitely I could fight him with a 1 chaos weapon endlessly for a year without dying, got nothing to do with killing things before you get hit.

As you haven't beat any of the guardians, I'm guessing you're talking about a permanent league. Especially as you have killed exactly ONE guardian in Harbinger, Legacy and Breach combined. I play permanent leagues too so I'm not judging here. But when it is so easy to facetank the guardians without a high DPS weapon, why don't you do this with your level 92 character in Harbinger?

Evasion and dodge are both defenses in this game. Calling them "bad options without a certain unique" isn't speaking against VP, it's speaking for VP. If a dual wielding, evasion based character CAN'T - in your eyes - utilize a good, defensive setup without one or two uniques, VP is needed.

I'm not against a VP nerf, I'm against a VP nerf without touching monster damage/player defenses. Does the VP nerf affect high regen tanks? No. Slayer leechers? No, rather a buff here. What about MoM tanks? Not at all. The VP nerf hits hardest on the right side of the tree, where your "bad defenses" are placed.

And BTW; Certain maps - with certain mods - will ALWAYS hit harder than Guardians. It isn't he Guardian one-shots people are crying about. They are perfectly telegraphed.

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CaptainWARLORD написал:

But, I mean clearly, you are the more skilled player here with your mirrored gear required to make builds. I, on the other hand, always made budget builds that range from a couple chaos to a few exalts.

If you argue with snorkle you can already expect that he is going to argue with mirror items in mind.
And bare in mind if he comes for the "but i can use binos" argument. It might work on a cheap no damage mod guardian map with a bit of luck and 7-10 minutes time. But it might fail the other 7 out of 10 times with a death or two on a decent map that others used to run deathless facetank mode.

Edit: Before i forget from the builds that snorkle used to brag *cough* i mean post around i have to say the damage of those was total bullshit for a mirror weapon. His builds are mostly wasted efficiency. Hes paranoid to not die has 12k or 15k or is it 20k? hours now played whatever - still he didnt managed to finish 1 lvl 100. In b4 20 lvl 96 - it doesnt take long for 96 the last 3 levels is where it shows if your character really can take the endgame consistently on t15/t16's.

My personal opinion about vaal pact is it was obscene with ES therefore ES got rightfully stomped. With life i have found it to be good but there still was enough options without it so im not sure why vaal pact had to be changed again. On the other hand im a bit thrilled because the new vaal pact benefits my new build concepts. Cant wait to see which ones builds stomp the black guardians on damage mods harder.

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LaiTash написал:

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Snorkle_uk написал:

I dont spend any points on evasion it just comes with your life nodes and % ring crafts.

So you're using the expensive items to skyrocket your evasion, good for you. That's with LC that forces you to seek additional 60% lightning res somewhere while giving no resists at all. Neither does your helmet. So i need rings with like +100% resists, enough file, %evasion, and probably +phys damage because i don't have access to mirrored daggers in a temp league. I don't want to know how much would it cost me. And most certainly i'll never get stuff like that in SSF. In fact, i'll probably never lay my hands on LC or starkonja's. All while people running totems with kaom's and MoM and just don't care.

the rings I have for that character have 1 resist on each of them.

Expensive items to skyrocket the evasion? I just explained the items Im using to get evasion, theres 4 of them and they can be got for 1 chaos each in a temp league. Probably cant get an lc self found, well theres a fairly common div card for it you could target farm, meanwhile all those self found kaoms builds that dont care hu?

What are we talking about exactly? You have to have vaal pact to play frostblades, then well ok you dont but its probably not hardcore viable, then its expensive (although it isnt) and now were discussing if this is self found viable?

Ok, you made a point about vp being essential for a skill, Ive shown you it isnt, Im not following you down this rabbit hole of changing the conversation over and over and over.

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Phrazz написал:

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Snorkle_uk написал:

Ive stood there and tanked guardians for 5 minutes at point blank with wildstrike. You think monsters in maps do more damage than guardians? If you have defenses monsters in maps are a joke, they will never kill you and I think you know that already so I dunno why you make a comment like that. If chimera just cycled his phases infinitely I could fight him with a 1 chaos weapon endlessly for a year without dying, got nothing to do with killing things before you get hit.

As you haven't beat any of the guardians, I'm guessing you're talking about a permanent league. Especially as you have killed exactly ONE guardian in Harbinger, Legacy and Breach combined. I play permanent leagues too so I'm not judging here. But when it is so easy to facetank the guardians without a high DPS weapon, why don't you do this with your level 92 character in Harbinger?

because the highest map that character has been in is a t7 map? Its a shit character that used mostly self found gear to farm these by chaining t2 beach maps...



it hasnt done uber lab, it was never even designed to be capable of anything other than quick farming t1-t7 maps to make currency. Its not designed to survive everything, its quite happy picking up deaths, its a completely minimal effort character being played to make money and not really put that much effort even into that venture. Were not racing content, were not pushing high tier anything, were not investing for a bigger payoff by flipping or buying decent gear etc. Were on a lazy shopping trip in a temp league, were not playing the game.

This is the jewelery Im waring




these are in my stash...



that are destined for standard characters. Im wearing a 6L someone in my guild found in a map and gave to me about 2 days before I quit playing harbinger a month into the league. Up till then I was wearing a 5L ev chest i found white and alched. I got 4x 6L coils in standard, why would I spent a chaos orb on a coil and then spend my fusings linking it when its worthless to me when the league ends? Whats the point of chaining high end content all day every day in standard, then coming to a league and then doing exactly the same thing? I like chaining t2 maps in leagues, its refreshing. I havent seriously played a league in that way in ages, Id go to leagues for a fresh start, within 5 days Ive got a 6L 350 pdps harbinger bow, a linked coil, rats nest and I can smash down the top tiers of maps all day every day with my eyes closed... Im back in standard, the game became such a joke in terms of gearing speeds with the unique drop rates and the crazy power creep everywhere that theres no challenge in a temp league, it is literally standard all over again within days and the difference is that a map boss takes 18 seconds to kill instead of 11 seconds after 1 shotting the entire map on the way there with virtually 0 danger. I dont see the point, Im happy enough doing that on standard where I give a shit about the characters, some of them have been with me for 4+ years. Only thing I care about in a league is what I take back to standard, theres nothing a guardian is going to give me that I care about or cant get with my feet on the desk watching netflix while I run white tier maps.

I have a mirror and 53 exalts in harbinger, I could literally make anything I want. I dont want anything from that league other than to bring that mirror back and copy doeboys entropy chant sceptre, thats why I went to the league, to get that sceptre and hopefully bring back some phys + accuracy coral rings because Im lacking a variety of acc corals. Some gloves and boots with the new hybrid rolls would be nice too



bit of suffix stripping is gonna be in order at some point on the boots.

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Phrazz написал:

Evasion and dodge are both defenses in this game. Calling them "bad options without a certain unique" isn't speaking against VP, it's speaking for VP. If a dual wielding, evasion based character CAN'T - in your eyes - utilize a good, defensive setup without one or two uniques, VP is needed.

pure evasion is just defensively terrible imo. Its perfectly viable to play that way, its just shit compared to many other options, Id certainly never play it on a serious character unless it had 8k+ life. Trust me I know, I play shit characters in leagues who use exactly those setups, Ive got a lot of experience playing them and I know how terrible they are. I wouldnt play pure armour either without gargantuan life on a serious character. Im not saying you cant play them, but the point is being put forward that you cant play without vp, and I know that isnt true, so when the people saying that then talk about alternatives and bring up stuff as glass cannon as dual wield pure evasion... I dont even know if its got the cannon, but I can assure you Ive played defenses a million different ways and its as glass as it comes while still being able to call itself a defense method.

You dont need a coil to make evasion work, you can just play evasion. If you want it to be a build that not only works but is defensively strong then youre gonna need something extra. Coil, Kintsugi, you can do it with a kaoms, you can do evasion with ci, you can do it with armour... youre vulnerable to physical with evasion and you are gonna be open to 1 shots from high phys damage, youre gonna need some way to get a solid base of physical damage protection or a massive lifepool that can absorb the damage. If you go armour without any avoidance youre gonna be open to burst damage, youre gonna need block or evasion or gargantuan life. All the defenses have weaknesses, doesnt mean they are not viable to play on their own, but you are defensively substandard compared to the range of opinions on the table if you dont plug that gap, youre glass. People can play glass and get away with it, Im not writing it off by any means, but its transparent and it rings when you flick it. I wouldnt trust myself with it in hc, you see mathil playing chars with that kind of caliber of defense a lot, hes twice the player I am and I feel like his /deaths is still far from a clean slate on those builds.