An elegant way to balance Cast When Damage Taken

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SL4Y3R написал:

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RogueMage написал:

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Poutsos написал:

The game is not supposed to be in beta anymore.i dont except huge balance changes at each patch like beta.imagine new players,starting chracters,build around skills,only to get nerfed in the next patch,or the one after.

Welcome to Beta 1.0.0. The latest patch introduced many new features to the game, none of which were Beta tested before release. (And according to those who should know, patch 1.0.0 wasn't Alpha tested either.) In addition to the fresh Act 3x content, there are many interactions with innovative new items and skill gems that veteran Beta testers have just begun to explore. No doubt some combos will emerge to pose unanticipated gameplay balance issues, but no worries, GGG have committed to releasing updated patches every two weeks or so. And in the event of major, build-altering revisions in future patches to come, players can rest assured that their gear and characters will not be wiped, and that full skill-point respec's will be granted if ever the need arises.

Edit. To the guy above me. All companies patch and balance the game throughout the games lifespan. would be amateurish not to

To my knowledge,heavy balancing is very rare between small patches,and mainly happen on large patches after a long period of time.The weekly patches are mainly for bug fixes.I dont want to argue,i hate arguing:P I dont even say that balance should not happen,my point was that they shouldnt have ended beta with so major changes in the game,where balance changes are guaranteed,cause lets face it,GGG hasnt been the best in terms of balance.Just saying that for new players,nerfing skills in 1 week or so wouldnt be the best first intention,especially in a game that has been in the longest beta in history :P

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ScrotieMcB написал:

I just want to say that there is nothing whatsoever elegant or play-friendly about losing mana due due to automatic, random events. You're about to cast a skill, you're depending on it to survive, and... oops, you got hit, mana's gone. Reep.

Precisely why I am in favor of it remaining as is, mana cost wise. If anything has to change, then I'd be in favor of Scrotie's suggestion to give it a flat mana reservation.

As long as the mana requirements don't raise (my Marauder only has ~40 manapoints) I can go with the suggestion to raise the Mana costs during casting (life in my case) as more Skill gems you link with the support gem.
But the Requirements should stay, same with the cast speed.
It is a "melee" gem and Melee charas usualy don't have that much mana, of course this can vary from chara to chara and build to build.
It's also a nice Single Player boost becuse you don't get that much hits in party playing compared to single player where every mob only focusses at you. CWDT is not hte best choos if you are Ranged and in Partys imho. So GGG basicly did something right in buffing melee and single player a little bit and I'm thankful for this gift, took long enough.

I also agree that the mechanics may not be perfect as long as leveling up the gem makes not much sense. However, if you want to do damage, you need to level up the gem, I have the luxury to have 2 of the CWDT gems, one Level 1 for more triggering and one Level 6 for more damage, but ok, I would not go higher thant that atm because it's already a big difference in trigger times between these gems.

It gives melee characters a much-needed survivability boost, but if it indeed requires a nerf, here are some of my thoughts:
Cast one linked skill at a time, randomly chosen (instead of all linked skills at once)
or
Start with 35ish % to cast and increase that chance as the gem levels up.
or
Reserve the combined amount of mana cost of linked skills (maybe with a mana cost multiplier? not sure)

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kolton написал:

It gives melee characters a much-needed survivability boost, but if it indeed requires a nerf, here are some of my thoughts:
Cast one linked skill at a time, randomly chosen (instead of all linked skills at once)
or
Start with 35ish % to cast and increase that chance as the gem levels up.
or
Reserve the combined amount of mana cost of linked skills (maybe with a mana cost multiplier? not sure)

Why does it NEED a nerf? Melee and solo players have been fucked for a long time now, I personally play solo because grouping feels chaotic and rushed, in short boring for me. I play melee because it is my preferred play style ranged is boring. God forbid melee/solo players finally after 2 years get something that benefits them.

This community cries about nerfs more then the d3 crowd did. If you dont like the skill, dont fucking use it, plain and simple. This insnt beta anymore you have a new group of people alot because of steam and some waiting for release, GGG dosent need to set to tone of nerfing everything that works. I have a level 55 scion act2 merc and still have not had this gem drop for me, I play self found. I damn sure dont want it nerfed before I can even get my hands on it.

This is what you no lifers need to understand you are crying about a skill that first needs to be found, you need linked items with the correct colors to make it work. Alot of people dont even have this setup working yet. I see the same no lifers crying for nerfs yet again. Let people play and enjoy the game, beta is over GGG needs to focus on the majority of new or normal players, not you handful of no lifers.

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IceM написал:

Why does it NEED a nerf?

CWDT doesn't need a nerf. No one here wants to nerf it. It's not overpowered, we all appreciate the results it produces, and no one is lobbying to weaken it.

Why do people cry nerf, Nerf, NERF! when no one is asking for that?

As it stands in 1.0.0, CWDT casts the spells you link to it without interrupting you, and at absolutely zero cost. It has no significant drawbacks and the fact that it's cost-free makes it practically mandatory for any build that takes damage in combat. That's the only thing that's unbalanced about CWDT - it lacks a cost comparable to the power it offers.

If you think CWDT should remain absolutely free, then fine, we disagree on that point. But assessing an appropriate cost for a powerful new skill is NOT "nerfing" it, it is a way of balancing its benefits against the costs of alternative skills you might choose to use instead.

Once more, everyone seems to ignore this:

Even if we changed it to have a mana cost, in any way, we would still have the same main issue at the moment.

The gem, at level 1, has no need to be levelled up. Even as someone earlier said, they levelled one up for damage, but it wasn't as worthwhile to keep doing so because the trigger times were too long.


Do we really want the ONLY gem that is imperitively better at level 1 (level 2 for damage dealt/damage taken) to exist?

Even things like cleave, which are often left at a lower level, are done so due to the mana cost increasing, so its a resource management. No mana costa nd you'd probably level it to 20, as people who get the axe of doom do.



Why does it need to increase the damage taken to trigger per level.

Why would it not decrease it?

Why not use a % of hp+ES to calculate that amount aswell, so its easier to manage.

Level 1, takes 60% of your health before the skill activates
level 20, takes 10% of your health before the skill activates with less damage reduced than level 1


Then its at least ALWAYS better to level the gem, unlike currently where we have the only level 1 super star gem that no one wants to level ever

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Real_Wolf написал:

Even if we changed it to have a mana cost, in any way, we would still have the same main issue at the moment.

The gem, at level 1, has no need to be levelled up. Even as someone earlier said, they levelled one up for damage, but it wasn't as worthwhile to keep doing so because the trigger times were too long.

If you consider the change I have in mind in my OP, I think you'll see it provides an incentive to level-up the gem as well.

If the mana cost of casting spells via CWDT is scaled the same way as the damage reduction, it would start at 70% of the spells' casting cost at CWDT lvl-1. If that is too high a casting cost for your build, you can level-up the gem and reduce the cost to 38% at lvl-9. At the same time, however, the damage trigger point will also increase, reducing the frequency of spell casts, and that will also reduce your costs.

So in practice, you would tweak the CWDT gem level to the lowest damage trigger point that you can afford to spend in mana.

Rogue, your suggestion allows you to tweak it to the lowest damage point you can afford to spend in mana.

THIS IS STILL THE SAME ISSUE.

You are still wanting to keep it at level 1. When you increase your mana pool/regen, you want to DELEVEl your gem, not level it up.

This implies taht at level 1 is the optimum case, and the issue is getting your mana to a point you can sustain level 1.

When it should be the opposite.

it should be level 20 is the optimum case, and the issue (if we use your solution) is getting your mana to a point yuo can sustain level 20



Its like if arctic armour had awesome damage reduction at level 1, but huge mana cost. The goal would be to level it until you can use it, and then as you get better mana you could tweak the gem level to the lowest level to make it the best possible

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RogueMage написал:

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IceM написал:

Why does it NEED a nerf?

CWDT doesn't need a nerf. No one here wants to nerf it. It's not overpowered, we all appreciate the results it produces, and no one is lobbying to weaken it.

Why do people cry nerf, Nerf, NERF! when no one is asking for that?

As it stands in 1.0.0, CWDT casts the spells you link to it without interrupting you, and at absolutely zero cost. It has no significant drawbacks and the fact that it's cost-free makes it practically mandatory for any build that takes damage in combat. That's the only thing that's unbalanced about CWDT - it lacks a cost comparable to the power it offers.

If you think CWDT should remain absolutely free, then fine, we disagree on that point. But assessing an appropriate cost for a powerful new skill is NOT "nerfing" it, it is a way of balancing its benefits against the costs of alternative skills you might choose to use instead.

I beg to differ, there ane many people in this thread calling for it to be nerfed, if you are not one of them I wasnt talking to you.