Stop spreading the Evasion vs Armor fallacy

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Secondfiddle написал:

So, for the big brains in the room...

Is it obviously better to stack either armor OR evasion, and avoid duelist gear altogether? Or does the damage mitigation from mid level armor and mid level evasion approach the level of a pure armor or evasion build?

Assume high amounts of life nodes, picking up at least one of the +ar/eva nodes and arrow dodging.

Evasion's marginal EHP value is very high at low amounts of Evasion, and levels out later on. I expect this is what hybrid gear is balanced around - the ability to get a significant EHP boost at relatively low evasion.

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anubite написал:

If you have a decent enough maxmimum life, evasion and/or armor are good. Evasion is best against single hard-hitting targets, like rares and bosses. Armor is best against swarms of enemies, where you're frequently surrounded and struck many times in a short time.

Remember hat bosses in he game have higher accuracy than regular mobs.

Does anyone have the average monster damage/accuracy at higher levels? (70+) I'm making a spreadsheet of optimal stats and EHP for Eva, Armor, and hybrid builds.

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ScrotieMcB написал:

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wxyjac написал:

I take it you didn't read his post either.

He clearly knows about the evasion entropy mechanic.

If you're talking about this...

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Jakabov написал:

Evasion's randomization mechanic is artificial, like Warcraft III's, but is still relatively random.

...that gave me pause too. However, I went and googled WoW's mechanics looking for an evasion entropy equivalent, and found none. So this isn't a clear indicator he knew about entropy... if you feel I missed something, feel free to point it out.

Warcraft III and WoW is two different game.

And in warcraft III, even critical uses mechanism like evasion in PoE, therefore eliminating the streakness other RNG will give.

Anyway, if you read over his post again, he has not once mention the possibility that you will get hit by multiple hits consecutively; rather, his post's main point was about how you will die to one big hit that comes through; and how armor would be able to reduce it so that you don't get instant killed.

Pure Armour seems like a dubious choice to me if you're a Duelist, as compared to Armour/Eva hybrid with an Armour focus. You get a bit more armour for going all in, and you get stun immunity, but I don't know if that really compensates for being completely unable to evade attacks. Even 20% chance to evade prevents a lot of damage.

I googled both Warcraft III and WoW, didn't find anything. Maybe my Google skills are getting rusty... but for some reason I think you guys are talking about DoTA.

In any case, I pretty much mathematically proved that armour and evasion are equal in a vacuum. Yes, it was 50% evasion vs 60% armour, but in reality both of those require about the same amount of gear investment so it's not evasion's advantage.

The thing that gives armour a big edge is that endurance charge damage mitigation stacks addatively (so four charges plus 60% reduction is 80% reduction, which is twice as good), while evasion stacks multiplicatively (30% dodge plus 50% evasion is a 65% miss chance overall, which isn't even 50% better). Honestly, that aspect of endurance charges is in need of a nerf (I'm all about making the game harder).

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Zakaluka написал:

SNIP

Not being a dick here but Id love to see video evidence (rather than maths) to prove A/PA + pure evasion works endgame. Cause honestly Im not sure how it can, have you met flicker strike spiders/ghosts, leaping goatmen, flicker lightning things in act 3, those dervish things in act 3... they can (and often do) hit you from off screen, A/PA will not consistently dodge those even combined with high evade.

The only way I can see that build working is with tons of life nodes to survive the occasional devastating blow. And quite honestly as you know and I do, any build can work with tons of life nodes.

Also on a side note the best actual form of defense is blocking, its better than all the others by some distance. Now if you combined a high evade, A/PA dual wielder with a good 30% + block chance you might be onto something... hmm might try that I have a shadow sat at level 1 ive been meaning to level up.

That way you get 2 good 30% rolls to avoid damage entirely, then your standard evade roll. Im thinking you'd be taking maybe 1 hit out of 8 or thereabouts. As a point of interest does A/PA cancel out IR?? Its something I never got round to testing in CB... Cause if it doesnt its a form of defense Id certainly like to try.

This is a bloody amazing thread. I read the mechanics post on dodge way back, but now I am thinking that I simply failed to understand it. Reading this entire thread (yes, all of it) has been a treat.

Now, I apologize if this is something of an attempted hijack, but a question less mathematical and more opinion-related (due to the complexity of skilldrasil): With the nodes being what they are, soft-caps in mind, the duelist's "intended" gear is clearly viable and has a point. What I'd like to know is whether the hybrid nodes' distance (Leather and steel, looking at you) make gearing for hybrid gear downright dumb, or just mildly inconvenient for the pure classes?

Or, far more direct: I love the idea of building a str/dex "duelist" ranger, but given the tastiness of acrobatics and arrow dodging, it's hard to justify heading southwest very early on. Is the idea of mixing low amounts of armor into a melee ranger via the str you get from the few available nodes a terrible one?

Might be I should post this in the Ranger forum really, particularly since I'm interested in possible builds and direction, but I think it has some relevance since I also wonder what the benefit of low values added to otherwise pure armor/dodge is.

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RodHull написал:

Not being a dick here but Id love to see video evidence (rather than maths) to prove A/PA + pure evasion works endgame. Cause honestly Im not sure how it can, have you met flicker strike spiders/ghosts, leaping goatmen, flicker lightning things in act 3, those dervish things in act 3... they can (and often do) hit you from off screen, A/PA will not consistently dodge those even combined with high evade.

Not sure what you're talking about. Of all defense systems, A/PA handles a swarm of flickers or leap goats best. Mostly because mobs that use either attack tend to come with elemental damage as well, and both attacks hit very hard. Both things that cause evasion to outperform armour.

I am still of the belief that you haven't done this, or if you did it was a very cursory try.

As to "prove it to me with a video" - maybe, in time. I've made guide videos in the past, and they take a pretty significant effort. I'm not the type to just press record on a 2 minute gaming session and upload something un-narrated. In the meantime, you can try this. I'm not exaggerating. I've been to 70+ endgame in hardcore with A/PA from both a melee perspective and a ranged perspective. Attempt the same and I can comment on your defensive choices, against a real context in game. Defense is about quite a lot more than which rating you happen to stack, and how high you stack it.

Example, evasion's success hinges on recovery. I find that most who fail with evasion flask improperly, or seek the wrong types of recovery.

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ScrotieMcB написал:

I googled both Warcraft III and WoW, didn't find anything. Maybe my Google skills are getting rusty... but for some reason I think you guys are talking about DoTA.

DoTA is a mod game made and played in the platform of Warcraft III....


I don't know how you know DoTA but not WC3...