Chris Wilson: "I want to make sure that melee classes are as good as they can be"

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suszterpatt написал:

Do you believe GGG look at that graph and go "yup, that's about right, we didn't want to make any more money from those people anyway"?

Dunno if they even do, I imagine most of the purchases happen when new content hits and the hype is high. You know, the mindset probably goes something like:
League start: 'look at all this new stuff, gotta give them a few bucks for all that work'
Mid league: 'well, they still haven't fixed this and that, still the same old problems'

So, the feeling changes from positive to negative, and the thing is, even if it was neutral instead of negative I'm not sure it would bring a lot of money. I'm no consumer behavior analyst but you'd laymanly assume that a positively inclined customer group spends an order of magnitude more than neutral and negative combined.

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suszterpatt написал:

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鬼殺し написал:

I appreciate you answering them for me. I figure responding to one troll in this thread was enough for me. Explaining that player retention for PoE is measured in the spikes and dips of expansions and leagues to someone who's been around long enough to get that just seemed a waste to me.

Why does PoE get to use its own definition of player retention?

Because the overall trend is up, and because they get lots of people every expansion who come around to try it out and lots of the people brought in by the hype don't stay around, but even three months into they're still top 100 games on steam. So you're complaining that they're losing the spike from the hype but that's totally normal, what's not normal is that they're consistently getting that spike. You wouldn't be concerned if PoE was just always in the trough because then it would be flat, and hell that trough is going up every expansion anyway. You're just getting faked out by the fact that unlike other games people routinely come back to PoE after they leave, and it attracts new people, it's not like 95% of players on any game don't leave pretty quick.

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raics написал:

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suszterpatt написал:

Do you believe GGG look at that graph and go "yup, that's about right, we didn't want to make any more money from those people anyway"?

Dunno if they even do, I imagine most of the purchases happen when new content hits and the hype is high. You know, the mindset probably goes something like:
League start: 'look at all this new stuff, gotta give them a few bucks for all that work'
Mid league: 'well, they still haven't fixed this and that, still the same old problems'

So, the feeling changes from positive to negative, and the thing is, even if it was neutral instead of negative I'm not sure it would bring a lot of money. I'm no consumer behavior analyst but you'd laymanly assume that a positively inclined customer group spends an order of magnitude more than neutral and negative combined.

You're right, and this mindset just leaves place for another: "Oh, still the same old attitude with reliance on new shinny stuff and no substantial improvements to the underlying problems... Why should I keep playing supporting this @#%& if GGG doesn't do anything else???"

Without focusing on the real problems, and only marginally addressing some to an underwhelming extent, we as players remain with the impression that only "this way is the right way".

Unfortunately, it's not. GGG should also focus on making PoE feel like a balanced finished game. With true diversity, and meaningful choices. Not to mention that they should try to address all the QoL and other unpolished aspects too.

Meanwhile, I am one of the most fervent critics, and I always try to provide sufficient arguments/counter-arguments for various ideas, to highlight at best as I can all the possible and worthwhile improvements, but I still support GGG financially at a "decent" level. But this will only continue as long as PoE still remains "fun", and thankfully, there seems to appear competition that might deserve the same degree of support, so if PoE won't improve, I know where I'll spend my hard earned money and my most precious resource, my TIME...

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j33bus написал:

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suszterpatt написал:

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鬼殺し написал:

I appreciate you answering them for me. I figure responding to one troll in this thread was enough for me. Explaining that player retention for PoE is measured in the spikes and dips of expansions and leagues to someone who's been around long enough to get that just seemed a waste to me.

Why does PoE get to use its own definition of player retention?

Because the overall trend is up, and because they get lots of people every expansion who come around to try it out and lots of the people brought in by the hype don't stay around, but even three months into they're still top 100 games on steam. So you're complaining that they're losing the spike from the hype but that's totally normal, what's not normal is that they're consistently getting that spike. You wouldn't be concerned if PoE was just always in the trough because then it would be flat, and hell that trough is going up every expansion anyway. You're just getting faked out by the fact that unlike other games people routinely come back to PoE after they leave, and it attracts new people, it's not like 95% of players on any game don't leave pretty quick.

Yes, every game has a spike when an update is released, and there is always some dropoff after that. But no other game loses 80+% of its players within 3 months.


One of these things is not like the others:




If PoE had any kind of decent retention, those flatlines would be raising by a lot more with each update. And it bears repeating: GGG don't make any money from people who aren't playing. It's nice that people keep coming back, but if they only come back for 2 weeks per league, then there's only so much money they will spend. Every F2P game lives or dies by its day-to-day and week-to-week retention, and that's an area where PoE performs exceptionally poorly compared to every other game out there.

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sidtherat написал:

play namelock melee for once so youll 'enjoy' this thing.

I LIKE namelock. I enjoy targeting and missing individual mobs and pixels and not just 'general area'. I'm wrong person to tell 'play namelock and then youll see' like I never played it. I play namelock on PREDICTIVE all the time

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it is just technology that modern games are expected to have.

nonsense. this is why modern gaming is in a shitter. fluidness and smoothness and idiot-proofing does not make for a better game.

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stuff you describe as something pretty bad is exactly what POE's meta is atm. mindless, skill-less AOE spam done on linear (or open - depding on your taste of no-skill skill) map

I know it is and I agree it is, I was just trying to see what else you (surprisingly) support.

there is a difference between 'difficulty' (as in hitting individual monsters where your - player's - skill matter) and 'fighting the outdated cr.. tech'

right now what you seem to enjoy is faux-difficulty that somehow compensates - for you - the general lack of difficulty POE (and most ARPGs) have

while i understand your approach - you like challenges etc - i think you want them in a completely wrong game. POE is braindead-easy at this time. the last bastion of 'difficulty' you can find here is 'faux-difficulty' when outdated tech replaces you challenge

D3's auto lock is just evolution of what D2 had, GD has, Wolcen will have. POE somehow tried to do that (in like 2.5 or 2.6) but failed miserably due to lack of something.

do not confuse difficulty with outdated tech, there is nothing good in pretending that A is B. and doing that for too long is simply unhealthy

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grepman написал:

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sidtherat написал:

play namelock melee for once so youll 'enjoy' this thing.

I LIKE namelock. I enjoy targeting and missing individual mobs and pixels and not just 'general area'. I'm wrong person to tell 'play namelock and then youll see' like I never played it. I play namelock on PREDICTIVE all the time

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it is just technology that modern games are expected to have.

nonsense. this is why modern gaming is in a shitter. fluidness and smoothness and idiot-proofing does not make for a better game.

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stuff you describe as something pretty bad is exactly what POE's meta is atm. mindless, skill-less AOE spam done on linear (or open - depding on your taste of no-skill skill) map

I know it is and I agree it is, I was just trying to see what else you (surprisingly) support.

Namelock is OK when mob's density isnt too high, and enemy's killing time isnt too low. In PoE, those two are exactly "too high" and "too low" respectively. That's why namelocking feels so bad. Furthermore, "namelock" skills often dont even reward you properly for their limited range and single-target nature. Yes, Sunder deals ~20% less damage than Heavy Strike. But Sunder hits from range, has decent AoE and deals 40-80% more damage to clustered enemies, while heavy strike has nasty knockback that actually decreases your DPS by ~20%, if enemy isnt knockback-immune. IS all those HS's disadvantages worth extra 20% DPS? Hell, NO! And if enemy isnt immune to knockback, HS wont even have DPS advantage! I can say the same about Blade Flurry and Dual/Double strike....

What will players choose, when developers throw huge mobs packs with tiny HP pools at them? Sure, they choose skills with large range and AoE. And thanks to incompetent balance team, we have some skills with large range and AoE, that dont have appropriate penalty for that. Like, you can cover 10x higher area, and still have around the same DPS per target with those.

smooth ui and idiot-proofing player actions correcting them so they appear 'smooth' isnt 'outdated tech'

you're the one who's confusing terms here.

a game expecting to you hit a 10x10 pixel window and telling you 'ha you failed' when you failed
vs

a game expecting to you click somewhere in 100x100 pixel radius and graciously correcting when you click air when the mob moves in real time

has nothing to do with 'tech'
and everything to do with player expectations

its not outdated tech. its todays players.

consider autocorrect
vs no autocorrect

in typing shit. it has nothing to do with tech

if you type properly all the time you won't need autocorrect most of the time at all.
its just today the expectation is that people WONT type properly

vs people having to type properly before from start and no immediate auto-correct

tell me, who was expected to be a better typer ? a person who always uses autocorrect or person who doesn't ?

here its the same thing. companies expecations of playing an arpg nowadays are people standing in one place and clicking in general vicinity of monsters.

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grepman написал:

its just today the expectation is that people WONT type properly

Nah, the expectation is people will type faster with less errors, that's a bit unrealistic if you don't spend a lifetime mastering it. The situation is kinda similar here, in D1 a player was expected to click 50 enemies in 10 minutes, in modern games you're expected to click five or ten times the amount in the same time, that's why we have autolocking.

I don't mind clicking each enemy in D1, Nox or other old games, they're designed for it, PoE isn't.