Chris Wilson: "I want to make sure that melee classes are as good as they can be"

beter typer?

how does that matter? accept that some skills are no longer important on their own. typing is important TOOL to do things. i do not use autocorrect and my typing is bad (this is my 3rd language so the grammar is just as bad) but ill gladly use it to augment me in time of need. in few years people (in the tech advanced countries) will barely know how to use pens and type without autocorrect. will they be dumber? nobody knows. but you cannot stop the tide shouting that you want your old times back.

there are too many skills, too much to learn for us to try and master everything. so the flow is to get things done and if the most efficient way bypasess some old steps - so be it



'being able to flawlessly click on small objects' is some kind of a skill. sure. but do you think it matters? would you advertise POE to anyone telling them that this game is great because it rewards best clickers? really?

isnt this about builds, positioning, measuring abilities vs challenges? because right now you want me to believe you want to substitute difficulty

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grepman написал:

consider autocorrect
vs no autocorrect

in typing shit. it has nothing to do with tech

if you type properly all the time you won't need autocorrect most of the time at all.
its just today the expectation is that people WONT type properly

vs people having to type properly before from start and no immediate auto-correct

tell me, who was expected to be a better typer ? a person who always uses autocorrect or person who doesn't ?

here its the same thing. companies expecations of playing an arpg nowadays are people standing in one place and clicking in general vicinity of monsters.

Bah, then we should demand from PoE, Dota 2 accuracy, right?

Stop with being fallacious.

Every other goddamn ARPG managed to implement the "magic melee targeting" since Diablo - and I talk mainly about Diablo 1/2, Sacred 1/2, Torchlight 1/2, Grim Dawn and Titan Quest, just to name the more principal ones, next Wolcen and Warhammer 40K Inquisitor: Martyr will have it, heck even Deathspank manged it a lot better than PoE currently does.

So sadly NO, PoE has NO excuse regarding targeting of single target namelocking melee - and I play that playstyle more than the average, in all ARPGs, and in PoE too, so I should know a bit of what feels and acts like @&*# and what feels "great"...

I'm with @sidtherat on this point. Having some common sense regarding targeting is meant to make single target namelocking melee skills actually playable in a goddamn ONLINE focused ARPG. It's MANDATORY, no other way about it.

Not to mention that Dota 2, heck even Dota 1, that started as a goddamn mod for Warcraft 3, has targeting LIGHT YEARS AWAY from what is available in PoE - yes, I know we're not discussing the same genre, but I just wanted to state an OBVIOUS example where you actaully need SKILL aka Dota 1/2 versus the case where the said SKILL isn't as impactful aka PoE...

Yeesh. Even Starcraft 1/2 or any other goddamn RTS or RTT game managed to make targeting an intrinsinc aspect of the genre, and yet, PoE does not...

Isometric view be damned, this feels as absurd as "moar" vs "increased" scaling...

And targeting is just half the problem.

Even addressing this, would leave you with "bonkers" state faux melee skills, that are "melee AoE/ranged".

When will GGG address those "old school" single target namelocking melee skills to give them identity, and how???, is the main question, wouldn't you say?

Sadly, until they man up, and address that, we can't talk about "melee" working properly in PoE...

14 pages is a bit much to through right now but the key problem with melee IMO is Survivability. Too many bosses are simply capable of flinging out too much damage, status effect, or both at insane speeds making it nigh impossible to play a proper melee character--especially name lock skills--without getting completely destroyed or significantly hurting your clear speed. They need to start here before anywhere else and Vaal Pact needs to stop seeming so mandatory to achieve the survivability we seem to need. They should consider some or all of the following:

1. A more logarithmic power creep for mobs rather than linear when increasing their damage per level once reaching Maps (so around level 63+?)

2. Keystones, jewels, uniques, and other methods that provide great defensive enhancements but prevent the active use of projectile, ranged, and probably all offensive spells.

3. Health (and Mana too why not) potions do not end at full health, or at least a rollable mod keeps them active their full potential duration.

4. Ranged, especially spell caster mobs, have the damage of their attacks reduced and after a short range it scales up to normal to make melee less punishing.

5. More readily available elemental cap increases, especially on gear or passives that favor using or lock a character to non-ranged active skills.

6. Reduce the effects of diminishing returns or bake in an increase to soft cap limits in some weapon nodes and in many melee nodes.

7. Innate attack speed debuff on all monsters damaged by a melee skill while in melee range of its user, more on uniques/bosses on a case-by-case basis, so long as the character remains in melee range so melee attacks are more reliably landed and less time is spent moving/dodging.

8. Baked in defensive benefits to melee skills used in melee range either thematic to the skill or based on kit (1h+shield, 2hand, dualwield)

9. Make a pass on damage of every single map, vaal, and summoned uniques (i.e. Beyond) and on a case-by-case basis make appropriate tweaks. Some attack rapidly with ranged attacks, often with cold damage, or have other mechanics making them nearly impossible to safely deal with (let alone in a timely manner) for melee characters compared to ranged.

10. More mechanically driven content, again a sweep of map, vaal, and summoned uniques to give them, for example, phases and tells to ensure melee has "safe" moments of opportunity to attack.

11. More Fortify-like buffs that can only be applied by an active melee skill.



Some mixture of all that along with a few proper nerfs and buffs in other areas would go a long way towards balance. Some additional changes to help then bring melee in line with ranged for clear speed and survivability differences:

1. Life leech potential falls off over range, also consider a bonus to leech if leech is applied in melee range specifically by a melee skill.

2. End off-screening by adding a Time To Live flag to every projectile (prevents some mobs from offscreening, too). Base it off direction fired to account for the widescreen FOV.

3. Buff regular mob health 25-50% across the board post act 2 or so, more for higher levels, and buff base damage of all melee skills to compensate. They now have a distinct clearing potential and are less punished against bosses given they attack less often than ranged.

4. Disallow Fortify from applying via Movement skills.

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鬼殺し написал:

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raics написал:

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grepman написал:

its just today the expectation is that people WONT type properly

Nah, the expectation is people will type faster with less errors, that's a bit unrealistic if you don't spend a lifetime mastering it. The situation is kinda similar here, in D1 a player was expected to click 50 enemies in 10 minutes, in modern games you're expected to click five or ten times the amount in the same time, that's why we have autolocking.

I don't mind clicking each enemy in D1, Nox or other old games, they're designed for it, PoE isn't.

I'm starting to wonder if it ever was. And if not, it sure fooled me for a while. I do know that the Devs were proud of the more accurate targeting in PoE over the more convenient but functionally sloppy D3 approximations. Which I find ironic given how they then rendered such targeting unnecessary.

A long time ago in a beta far, far away...

For melee clases there isn't that many movement speed options, if you are using a 2hand weapon only good skill is leap slam but will feel insanely slow compared to having 200% movement speed from flasks and frenzy charges. Melee skills don't have enough splash/aoe and single targeting is just not fun, that's why most decent melee are ground targeted. Introducing some physical only aura would be great as well.

Yep, a physical damage aura would be great. But it should only work with melee, prevent elemental/chaos damage, and the extra damage to be applied in a very short range (single target skills, conc effect area of effect)