Updated: How Ignite, Chill, Freeze, Shock, & Poison Immunities can be made fair / still challenging.

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Fruz написал:

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robmafia написал:

...have you ever played diablo 2?

I could got give a crap about Diablo 2, that was another game and is completely irrelevant here.

...right. d2 is irrlevant to poe. my bad. it's not like this game is a spiritual successor to it and based much of its mechanics on it, or anything.

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Fruz написал:

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robmafia написал:

god forbid people try to diversify their damage output. that might require a tiny bit of thinking. emphasis on might, because vast majority of phys builds use hatred/HoA and viola, 3 types of damage. much hard.

the fact that we're not even talking about fire/cold/light/chaos immunity and just ailments makes this even dumber.

It's not like ailments have been reworked be scaled independantly from the on_hit damage calculation, right ? /s
So if I have a build which dmg is 75% burning, let just add mobs that are cutting 75% of my dmg before other mods, and making trickster passives unable to trigger, and make immolate completely uneffective ?
Wow, such brilliant ideas.

you have a pattern now with utterly complaining about content that is difficult for you, instead of utilizing ANY of the many options at your disposal to counter it. ie: the reflect nonsense you claimed in the other thread.

ie: yugul minor pantheon, phys to lightning gem.

btw, i do think immunities really are just fine - and yes, a good idea. diversify your portfolio.

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Fruz написал:

Let's add chaos immunity too, after all CI is a keystone in the game right ? let's put it on monsters !!

sure, works for me.

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Fruz написал:

... or not, of all the exiles to be fought in the game ( not talking about HoG, screw that map lol ), NONE of them has any kind of such immunities, and for good reasons : those are absolutely shit design in PoE, because the game encourages you to scale one type of damage only.

*cough, lies, cough*

so because the game is already in EZ mode, it shouldn't be actually challenging ever... and should also be even easier? not your best argument.

as for your last line (i'd say sentence, but that was a monster run-on), i already mentioned phys builds and hatred/HoA. it kind of blows that lofty claim out of the water, right there.

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Fruz написал:

This is also one of the reason with PvP is completely trash in this game by the way.

hahahahahahahaahahahahaha

lolwut?

pvp is crap for a lot of reasons, most having to do with balancing around greenman and letting secondary damage run rampant for years. (and then overlap damage...) 1000 QA "nerfs" like zerphi's were the icing on the cake. if you're complaining about people pigeonholing their chars for immunities (that all have downsides/counters) as the reason for pvp's problems... lolz.

and it's funny, when i even mentioned pvp in the other thread... you became obsessed about it, resorting in one fallacy after another, refusing to argue any of the actual points made.

kudos for falling into your own trap. again.

tl;dr - mechanics like this encourage one to think and perhaps make minor adjustments. how awful!

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robmafia написал:

btw, i do think immunities really are just fine - and yes, a good idea. diversify your portfolio.

...

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Fruz написал:

Let's add chaos immunity too, after all CI is a keystone in the game right ? let's put it on monsters !!

sure, works for me.

Immunities simply invalidate builds. That's why resistances are a much better option - maybe penetration is too easy to get right now, but in theory it's good to have that as a tool you can invest in to deal with high res enemies rather than a binary system of "yes you can kill" "no you cant kill."

I have a toxic rain pathfinder this league who deals almost entirely chaos damage. It's not realistically possible for me to respec to deal with a theoretical chaos-immune enemy. I would simply skip that content with this character, as would every character who deals one type of damage (many builds). I'd do the same with my bleed gladiator for phys-immunes or bleed-immunes (well, he's kinda shitty in general but that's on me and an entirely different topic). Was just talking to a friend who's planning an ignite elementalist and we went back and forth a while on whether to use attacks, spells, etc. All that choice would just be tossed out the window if some enemy comes along with complete immunity to fire, or ignite.

There is no incentive for me or anyone to spend currency switching back and forth to deal with one boss who's immune to an entire build. Most players would simply skip the content. And there's too much of that in this game already.

I totally understand your desire for GGG to add more challenge to the game, but a change that simply pisses everyone off by saying "your build cant kill this" is not the best way to get it. By the way, Diablo II's immunities were awful and my absolute least favorite part of the game (blegh, mandatory infinity mercs); I'd venture a guess that the original PoE devs avoided that mechanic intentionally.

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robmafia написал:

...right. d2 is irrlevant to poe. my bad. it's not like this game is a spiritual successor to it and based much of its mechanics on it, or anything.

Your opinion.

A fact, however : PoE is PoE, and D2 is D2.
And I could not give a crap about D2.

You just seem to not be able to think beyond D2 lol.

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robmafia написал:

ie: yugul minor pantheon, phys to lightning gem.

Already addressed that nonsense in the other thread, not like you can understand something that's not going along with your trolling.
And yes, let's switch pantheon power before entering any unid map just in case of course ...
*sigh*

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robmafia написал:

lolwut?

pvp is crap for a lot of reasons, most having to do with balancing around greenman and letting secondary damage run rampant for years. (and then overlap damage...) 1000 QA "nerfs" like zerphi's were the icing on the cake. if you're complaining about people pigeonholing their chars for immunities (that all have downsides/counters) as the reason for pvp's problems... lolz.

and it's funny, when i even mentioned pvp in the other thread... you became obsessed about it, resorting in one fallacy after another, refusing to argue any of the actual points made.

kudos for falling into your own trap. again.

tl;dr - mechanics like this encourage one to think and perhaps make minor adjustments. how awful!

LULZ.

PvP was doomed from the very start because resolute technique and Chaos innoculation are a thing and just simply negate some other builds completely.
And ailment immunity just add up to that.

Completely rendering useless potential builds when you are matched randomely against oponent is not smartly countering anything, have you every played some actual pvp games or did you just throw whatever flew through your head without spending more than a second to think about it ?
Chaos innoculation being a things means obviously that there is no point going PvP is a chaos build.

It's so blatantly obvious, discussing this is mind-blowing seriously.

(again, in the other thread, you mentioned some archetypes being a thing a PvP in a conversation about reflect, that was so stupid it could have been funny, but with the amount of trolling on top of it, it wasn't tbh ).

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robmafia написал:

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robmafia написал:

Let's add chaos immunity too, after all CI is a keystone in the game right ? let's put it on monsters !!

sure, works for me.

/ROFL
feel free to talk to yourself from now on then.

At least it's obvious to all now.

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demon9675 написал:

I totally understand your desire for GGG to add more challenge to the game, but a change that simply pisses everyone off by saying "your build cant kill this" is not the best way to get it.

Yeah, that would not be challenge, that would just be shit design, pushing people to have more than one character for a given content, or just skip it, or ask somebody else to do it for them.
What a challenge /rofl.

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demon9675 написал:

Immunities simply invalidate builds.

more specifically, they invalidate people you intentionally use imbalanced builds with all/virtually all of their damage coming from one source.

which is fine. coins have 2 sides, and all...

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demon9675 написал:

That's why resistances are a much better option - maybe penetration is too easy to get right now, but in theory it's good to have that as a tool you can invest in to deal with high res enemies rather than a binary system of "yes you can kill" "no you cant kill."

I have a toxic rain pathfinder this league who deals almost entirely chaos damage. It's not realistically possible for me to respec to deal with a theoretical chaos-immune enemy. I would simply skip that content with this character, as would every character who deals one type of damage (many builds). I'd do the same with my bleed gladiator for phys-immunes or bleed-immunes (well, he's kinda shitty in general but that's on me and an entirely different topic). Was just talking to a friend who's planning an ignite elementalist and we went back and forth a while on whether to use attacks, spells, etc. All that choice would just be tossed out the window if some enemy comes along with complete immunity to fire, or ignite.

There is no incentive for me or anyone to spend currency switching back and forth to deal with one boss who's immune to an entire build. Most players would simply skip the content. And there's too much of that in this game already.

I totally understand your desire for GGG to add more challenge to the game, but a change that simply pisses everyone off by saying "your build cant kill this" is not the best way to get it. By the way, Diablo II's immunities were awful and my absolute least favorite part of the game (blegh, mandatory infinity mercs); I'd venture a guess that the original PoE devs avoided that mechanic intentionally.

blah, blah, blah

you restate the same point in a tirade that never goes anywhere. there are ample options to 'deal with' problems. or you can keep choosing to avoid it, altogether - regardless, it's up to you.

as for d2 - lolz. it's the same thing. people could make a build that focuses on one damage type that's min-maxed or diversify into 2+ damage types to deal with more content. it encourages people to think and choose. even runewords, aside.

ie: light sorc vs meteorb. poison necro vs summoner.

if someone puts all of their eggs in one basket, one doesn't really have a valid complaint when monsters immune to that egg appear. it was by choice.

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Fruz написал:

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robmafia написал:

...right. d2 is irrlevant to poe. my bad. it's not like this game is a spiritual successor to it and based much of its mechanics on it, or anything.

Your opinion.

A fact, however : PoE is PoE, and D2 is D2.
And I could not give a crap about D2.

You just seem to not be able to think beyond D2 lol.

you can't seem "to think beyond" singular examples. d2. pvp. an item linked to the forum. you then focus on it instead of the reason why - even when the reason is literally stated.

also, that's not opinion, let alone just my opinion. chris said it, himself. it's a fact.

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Fruz написал:

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robmafia написал:

ie: yugul minor pantheon, phys to lightning gem.

Already addressed that nonsense in the other thread,

no, you didn't. you evaded the hell out of it.

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Fruz написал:

not like you can understand something that's not going along with your trolling.

and there it is again. you disagree with presented facts? straight to ad-hom and a trolling accusation. you've done it every time.

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Fruz написал:

And yes, let's switch pantheon power before entering any unid map just in case of course ...
*sigh*

and reductio ad absurdum. nice. too bad no one ever said to switch BEFORE. but it's pretty easy to hop in a map and damage one monster to test for reflect. and you know, THEN make adjustments.

if you hate these mods so much and refuse to make adjustments/run them, WHY WOULD YOU RUN UNIDENTIFIED MAPS? derp. you're again complaining about your own choice and acting like you didn't make these choices.

Yes, let's adress the statstick issue by making builds that deal physical damage and literally all other kinds through conversion the only ones that can deal with all content. Not like the design of linking five support gems to a single active one or stacking sources of resistance reduction, penetration, and damage taken encourage choosing a single damage type or anything.

#buildDiversity

Let's just all deal the same composition of "a little bit of everything" so we never lose more than 20% of our damage. Who needs complicated mechanics revolving around damage over time or elemental ailments anyway?

The argument that phys to whatever converting builds do have a way to deal with complete immunities is so mind-bogglingly horrible, that I could barely come up with a response.

...except i never once mentioned or otherwise even implied stat sticks. sweet strawman.

it's as if there aren't "elemental" nodes on the tree. it's as if a lightning skill won't benefit from an anger aura. it's as if one made a choice to have the narrowest damage possible... only to complain that the damage is narrow.

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robmafia написал:

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demon9675 написал:

Immunities simply invalidate builds.

more specifically, they invalidate people you intentionally use imbalanced builds with all/virtually all of their damage coming from one source.

which is fine. coins have 2 sides, and all...

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demon9675 написал:

That's why resistances are a much better option - maybe penetration is too easy to get right now, but in theory it's good to have that as a tool you can invest in to deal with high res enemies rather than a binary system of "yes you can kill" "no you cant kill."

I have a toxic rain pathfinder this league who deals almost entirely chaos damage. It's not realistically possible for me to respec to deal with a theoretical chaos-immune enemy. I would simply skip that content with this character, as would every character who deals one type of damage (many builds). I'd do the same with my bleed gladiator for phys-immunes or bleed-immunes (well, he's kinda shitty in general but that's on me and an entirely different topic). Was just talking to a friend who's planning an ignite elementalist and we went back and forth a while on whether to use attacks, spells, etc. All that choice would just be tossed out the window if some enemy comes along with complete immunity to fire, or ignite.

There is no incentive for me or anyone to spend currency switching back and forth to deal with one boss who's immune to an entire build. Most players would simply skip the content. And there's too much of that in this game already.

I totally understand your desire for GGG to add more challenge to the game, but a change that simply pisses everyone off by saying "your build cant kill this" is not the best way to get it. By the way, Diablo II's immunities were awful and my absolute least favorite part of the game (blegh, mandatory infinity mercs); I'd venture a guess that the original PoE devs avoided that mechanic intentionally.

blah, blah, blah

you restate the same point in a tirade that never goes anywhere. there are ample options to 'deal with' problems. or you can keep choosing to avoid it, altogether - regardless, it's up to you.

as for d2 - lolz. it's the same thing. people could make a build that focuses on one damage type that's min-maxed or diversify into 2+ damage types to deal with more content. it encourages people to think and choose. even runewords, aside.

ie: light sorc vs meteorb. poison necro vs summoner.

if someone puts all of their eggs in one basket, one doesn't really have a valid complaint when monsters immune to that egg appear. it was by choice.

Lol at "tirade." But moving on...

In saying that builds that rely on a single damage type or element should no longer be viable, you're asking for the introduction of an entirely new factor to be taken into account when creating PoE builds which has never been present before. Such a request requires justification and an explanation of your reasoning: why is this necessary, and what benefit would it bring to the game? I ask these questions earnestly and without judgement, but the burden is on you to make the case for this change.

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robmafia написал:

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demon9675 написал:

Immunities simply invalidate builds.

more specifically, they invalidate people you intentionally use imbalanced builds with all/virtually all of their damage coming from one source.

which is fine. coins have 2 sides, and all...

PoE's main way of scaling damage ( and what it is now balanced around, how much HP bosses have, etc ... ) IS to focus on one type of dmg, omfg.
How much more bad-faith can you throw here ?

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robmafia написал:

lots of nonsense

No, your opinions are exactly that : opinions.
You can't accept facts not convenients to you : not my problem.
D2 is NOT PoE (hint: that is a fact), and the farther PoE gets developped, the more different it gets from D2.

The rest is just trying to dodge and flame.
*sigh*

And the irony is that you always keep saying "duh this is a fact !" were you can't accept facts that are just not convenient to you lulz.

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robmafia написал:

WHY WOULD YOU RUN UNIDENTIFIED MAPS?

Playing dumb I see ....
In case you would geniunely be ignorant regarding this :
- you can be sure that PoE's balance is expecting you to use the tools you have, including runing unid maps.
- challenges include running unid maps
- sextants encourage you to run unid maps

[quote"DER_PSYCOPATH"]
The argument that phys to whatever converting builds do have a way to deal with complete immunities is so mind-bogglingly horrible, that I could barely come up with a response.[/quote]
It is, but you know, some people's way to play the game being fine with terribly shit design decision has to be the correct one in their eyes, right ?
Can't accept anything else, no.

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demon9675 написал:

Lol at "tirade." But moving on...

In saying that builds that rely on a single damage type or element should no longer be viable, you're asking for the introduction of an entirely new factor to be taken into account when creating PoE builds which has never been present before. Such a request requires justification and an explanation of your reasoning: why is this necessary, and what benefit would it bring to the game? I ask these questions earnestly and without judgement, but the burden is on you to make the case for this change.

"Lol"s at "tirade."

makes a strawman tirade to put words in my metaphorical mouth and then suggest this fake claim needs justification.

*facepalm*

you're right! i totally said this is necessary! /s i definitely wasn't using it as an example from a relevant game! /s

i said i'd be fine with it. and ironically, my previous post even did layout reasoning for it. but i never said poe needs this or made a thread suggesting that poe should have ele/phys immune monsters...



@ fruz

you keep talking about facts and opinions.

you also keep resorting to ad-hominem trolling accusations every time you're faced with facts that trump your opinion. hypocrisy.

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Fruz написал:

You can't accept facts not convenients to you : not my problem.

hilarious hypocrisy.

you've done just this about d2's influence, that builds other than the 3 you mentioned can handle reflect, "the game encourages you to scale one type of damage only" (this thread should be proof enough of the opposite - it would not exist if your claim was true)...

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Fruz написал:

Playing dumb I see ....
In case you would geniunely be ignorant regarding this :
- you can be sure that PoE's balance is expecting you to use the tools you have, including runing unid maps.
- challenges include running unid maps
- sextants encourage you to run unid maps

...lolwut?

i asked YOU why YOU run unid maps, given the things you said about reflect/ailments.

hence, you willingly run unid maps and then you complain about mods you willingly run.