Updated: How Ignite, Chill, Freeze, Shock, & Poison Immunities can be made fair / still challenging.

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robmafia написал:

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demon9675 написал:

Lol at "tirade." But moving on...

In saying that builds that rely on a single damage type or element should no longer be viable, you're asking for the introduction of an entirely new factor to be taken into account when creating PoE builds which has never been present before. Such a request requires justification and an explanation of your reasoning: why is this necessary, and what benefit would it bring to the game? I ask these questions earnestly and without judgement, but the burden is on you to make the case for this change.

"Lol"s at "tirade."

makes a strawman tirade to put words in my metaphorical mouth and then suggest this fake claim needs justification.

*facepalm*

you're right! i totally said this is necessary! /s i definitely wasn't using it as an example from a relevant game! /s

i said i'd be fine with it. and ironically, my previous post even did layout reasoning for it. but i never said poe needs this or made a thread suggesting that poe should have ele/phys immune monsters...

So to clarify, you're not advocating adding damage type immunities to the game, only stating that you wouldn't mind if they were added because it would force builds to diversify the types of damage they're doing. OK, that makes sense, and it makes this conversation really simple:

I'm also not advocating adding damage type immunities to the game, but I would mind if they were added because it would have the effect of limiting build diversity, encouraging players to skip content, and devaluing skill tree nodes, item affixes, and support gems that only benefit one damage type.

Instead, players would flock to more general sources of damage (ie. damage, spell damage, melee/attack damage, elemental damage, crit stats, etc) and flee from ailments, elemental damage that can't be easily converted, and niche specialization in general. Many uniques with traits designed to buff specific damage types would start to be perceived as trash by the community as well, with phys-elemental conversion becoming one of the simplest and most desirable/expensive ways to build. The hegemony of "% phys gained as extra ele damage" stat sticks/quivers would be further ingrained.

Given that one of the main attractions of PoE for me is to create new, interesting, and specialized characters each league, it should be understandable that I don't find such a profound, foundational change in what makes a viable build desirable. And it should also be understandable why I agree with the OP that ailment immunities are a problem in general, although I don't really get his overly complex solution (and I'm unclear whether such immunities are still actually a thing in 3.4? Just agreeing with him on concept, if not on details).

But given that neither of us are advocating for more status immunities or damage type immunities to be added, there's not much reason for us to continue debating.

(Edited for clarity)

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it would have the effect of limiting build diversity

hahaha, what? it would provide incentive to diversify damage. ie: the exact opposite of your claim.

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But given that neither of us are advocating for more status immunities or damage type immunities to be added, there's not much reason for us to continue debating.

and yet, you made a lengthy post, anyway.

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robmafia написал:

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it would have the effect of limiting build diversity

hahaha, what? it would provide incentive to diversify damage. ie: the exact opposite of your claim.

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But given that neither of us are advocating for more status immunities or damage type immunities to be added, there's not much reason for us to continue debating.

and yet, you made a lengthy post, anyway.

The number of builds that can diversify damage is less than the number of builds that can effectively specialize but not diversify. Builds that can diversify damage rely on a limited set of mechanics to do so, while the game's design offers a multitude of options for specialization. Therefore, despite my use of the word "diversify" when referring to damage, the overall diversity of builds would decrease. Apologies for any confusion there.

And yes, I made a lengthy post. I take my responsibility to explain my arguments seriously. I admit I was being flippant with the "we don't need to keep debating" thing, so don't crucify me for continuing to respond :)

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robmafia написал:

...except i never once mentioned or otherwise even implied stat sticks. sweet strawman.

it's as if there aren't "elemental" nodes on the tree. it's as if a lightning skill won't benefit from an anger aura. it's as if one made a choice to have the narrowest damage possible... only to complain that the damage is narrow.

Excuse me for the jump in logic, that may have been too hard for you to follow. Luckily someone else elaborated, but I'll say it again to be sure:

Extra conversion stat sticks are a problem and provide effective "more" damage modifiers, that the more general increases in spell or elemental damage, that you seem to love so much, can't hope to compare to. They are desired by many people playing the few skills that are compatible with them and most other skills are being played less in turn.

This is one of the major issues of build diversity from my point of view right now.

Complete immunities to a specific type of damage or ailment would limit the damage of such builds only marginally, but the vast majority of possible builds (even if they're not being played much right now either) would be entirely encapable to deal with some of the content. The few people still playing like that would have to skip any and all of the qualifying encounters. This in turn means that fewer people play and even more importantly, experiment with these types of characters.

Thus followed the conclusion, that was admittedly deeply buried in sarcasm, that the concept of immunities to specific types of damage and mechanics has zero positive impact on the game.

With my point made, I shall excuse myself from this thread, lest I be trolled into probation.

History is on the no immunities side.

The first ailment immune boss to be introduced to the game was Atziri. She was immune to ignite because for some reason it was considered too cheesy(I don’t really remember the state of ignite back then but I don’t really think it was even strong to begin with until double dipping). The result? Any ignite based build wasn’t viable for the only end game boss in the game and it was fairly unpopular as a build mechanic. Ignite builds didn’t gain in popularity until double dipping and more endgame content was added.

So it restricted build diversity until the ignite builds were just too powerful to ignore and then it just restricted what content they’d run.

Oh and it was also heavily criticized on the forums and reddit.

After atziri we got Phoenix, Chimera, and Hydra in atlas of worlds. The Phoenix was ignite immune and chimera and hydra were poison immune. Double dipping was very present in the meta at this point so people just skipped the guardians their build couldn’t handle.

Again, it just restricted what content people would run and it was also heavily criticized on the forums and reddit.

Then in 3.0 GGG removed the ailment immunities from these bosses and there was much rejoicing.

So if we look at what actually happens... Yeah.. Either build diversity drops or people skip content. The more heavy handed immunities GGG adds the more pronounced this effect will be. Immunities may have a place in some games, but they don’t belong in PoE. They were tried here and they failed.

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robmafia написал:

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HeavyMetalGear написал:

How Ignite, Chill, Freeze, Shock, and Poison Immunities can be made fair

...how is it unfair?

Pardon my late reply.

Must it really be explained why 100% Immunity mods are unfair on Map Bosses and Major main Map Bosses? (Notice I did not mention regular enemies like Rares, minor Unique Bosses, and Rogue Exiles?)

It matters not how often a Map Boss or Major main Map Boss with 100% Status Ailment Immunity occurs; what matters is the fact the situation occurs at all, thereby road-blocking certain builds, and if not that, affecting their effectiveness where other builds do not suffer quite as much.

While GGG has done away with most 100% Immunity mods on Bosses, there are still Map Bosses and Major main Map Bosses on the Atlas that have them that can or do road-block certain builds, notably Ele-based builds, that rely on Status Ailments and are built around certain Status Ailment modifiers to dish out most of their damage. That is what makes it unfair.

Now, certain builds do exist that can down even the toughest Bosses with 100% Status Ailment Immunity using straight damage with their Element of choice without getting damage benefits from their Status Ailments, yet that proves absolutely nothing other than downing certain Bosses taking a longer time as a result, while other builds (notably ones that cycle through different damage types instead of being one major damage type) do not have to really worry about that.

One particular Status Ailment that still gets screwed to this day above all other Status Ailments is Ignite, while other Status Ailments do not suffer quite as much. The idea in my OP therefore makes things fair across the board for all Status Ailments, meaning no other Status Ailment is favored over another when it comes to certain builds gaining or not gaining the damage benefits they provide.

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robmafia написал:

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HeavyMetalGear написал:

When Rares, minor Unique Bosses, and Rogue Exiles are Immune to Status Ailments:

The only monsters throughout PoE that should be allowed to be 100% Immune to Ignite, Chill, Freeze, Shock, and/or Poison are Rares, minor Unique Bosses, and Rogue Exiles if they have any of those Status Ailment immunity mods.

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The monsters throughout PoE that should not be allowed to be 100% Immune to Ignite, Chill, Freeze, Shock, and/or Poison are Map Bosses and Major main Map Bosses if they have any of those Status Ailment immunity mods.

you said this twice, but failed to address the pre-req of... why? why shouldn't other monsters/mobs be immune to _____?

I believe you meant, "Why shouldn't Map Bosses and Major main Map Bosses be 100% Immune to [insert Immunity mod(s) here]"

I thought the answer to your question was something that did not require such in-depth explanation, notably because I thought the issue was a mutually understood issue, yet I guess that's what I get for thinking.

With that being said in mind, I answered your question by giving you specific reasons to what makes 100% Status Ailment Immunity unfair, notably on Map Bosses and/or Major main Map Bosses (not Rares, Unique Bosses, and Rogue Exiles).

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robmafia написал:

@ fruz

you keep talking about facts and opinions.

you also keep resorting to ad-hominem trolling accusations every time you're faced with facts that trump your opinion. hypocrisy.

I have destroyed all of your fallacious BS 'facts' and arguments that you presented.
Speaking about hypocrisy ... /rofl


And if you can't see that the game is pushing people to scale one type of damage and has been doing so for a long time, you're either blind, or resorting to pure bad-faith.

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robmafia написал:

i asked YOU why YOU run unid maps, given the things you said about reflect/ailments.

And I just answered YOU (just wanted to do the same as you there ... yeahm I know, it's stupid right ?) why (the game encouraging/pushing/requiring things apply to all players), you can't get it, it's fine.

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robmafia написал:

hahaha, what? it would provide incentive to diversify damage. ie: the exact opposite of your claim.

He literally gave you concrete reasons on why this would limit build diversity.

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鬼殺し написал:

Damage immunities just don't belong in PoE because as others have said, the game overwhelmingly encourages single-source damage builds, and that's why we mostly don't have them.

Precisely, adding immunities accross the board would remove so much incentive to playing so many things ....

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DER_PSYCHOPATH написал:

Not a great concept for poison builds, not that those don't avoid the mods anyway.

If you read the OP carefully, you will see no Status Ailment I mentioned in my concept is given more favor over another Status Ailment. That is the whole point behind the concept I propose, to make things fair across the board for all Status Ailments.

Re-read the headline titled 'When Map Bosses and Major main Map Bosses are Immune to Status Ailments', and read what happens when a Status Ailment-Immune Map Boss or Major main Map Boss becomes less Immune over time to any Ailment, including but not limited to, Poison.

So... What makes the concept not fair and good again?

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Fruz написал:

I have destroyed all of your fallacious BS 'facts' and arguments that you presented.
Speaking about hypocrisy ... /rofl

if "destroyed" means "evaded and ignored," sure.

for bonus irony - you did this in the post i'm quoting, as well.

still waiting to hear why YOU run unid maps when YOU claim that YOU CAN'T do certain mods that roll on maps... and since you made it clear you won't make any minor adjustments to deal with them (ie: reflect).

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HeavyMetalGear написал:

Must it really be explained why 100% Immunity mods are unfair on Map Bosses and Major main Map Bosses? (Notice I did not mention regular enemies like Rares, minor Unique Bosses, and Rogue Exiles?

yes.

btw, you restated the issue in great length without ever explaining how/why it's "unfair."

worse, my previous statement remains unrefuted - logically speaking, there should be a flipside to min-maxing one damage type instead of diversifying.


and if charon agrees with you, you know you're on the wrong side.

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DER_PSYCHOPATH написал:

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robmafia написал:

...except i never once mentioned or otherwise even implied stat sticks. sweet strawman.

it's as if there aren't "elemental" nodes on the tree. it's as if a lightning skill won't benefit from an anger aura. it's as if one made a choice to have the narrowest damage possible... only to complain that the damage is narrow.

Excuse me for the jump in logic,

that's a contradiction.

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DER_PSYCHOPATH написал:

Extra conversion stat sticks are a problem and provide effective "more" damage modifiers, that the more general increases in spell or elemental damage, that you seem to love so much, can't hope to compare to.

...wtf are you talking about?

no shit, stat sticks are a problem. i've said they should have never existed numerous times, that fake dual wielding should be disabled, and etc. that's not what this topic is about, though. at all.

and you're the only one talking about them. and you seem to think that you/i were arguing about them, when i never even mentioned them at all until after you made a post all about stat sticks.

ffs, this isn't the stat stick thread (and there are hundreds of them).