How trading make you feel loots is bad

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Elena#1466 написал:

I agree with the initial statement.
There is also another aspect why loot feels "bad": you skip most of the loot progression by buying T15 loot from the auction house. The current game is basically campaign + progressing from T1 to T15 maps. There isn't much content after that, only a few pinnacle bosses. So there also isn't much loot progression left.

It's not quite as simple as this. It would work the way you're saying, if all builds had the same barrier for entry and same gear depedency for T15s, but they don't.

Basically, one build might be able to hit endgame and go straight to T15-enabling gear for a few exalted with no issues. Another might find itself completely stuck for anything less than a few div. Some players can afford that experience, but most can't.

Instead what I would bet mostly happens is fresh characters (no other endgame character) get to endgame and buy what they can afford. This might get the average build/player into a gear state where they can do T6-T8 right away. Then they flop around in maps at that tier for a while leveling, and hoping for loot/currency that will bump them up to the next step.

It never happens. Drops suck, so they get frustrated that their progress is stuck. So then they take what little currency all that mapping got them, and try to trade into better gear. Now at best they can afford gear to get them to T10-T12.

And this keeps happening until they finally "feel viable in endgame". If it was one trade session to get to T15 and pinnacle content, players wouldn't be frustrated, they'd be bored. They'd get it instantly, and only the people dying to do the chase grind would keep at it.

Instead, people are frustrated with the progression, because you have to do this song and dance. Trade, grind-grind-grind, trade, and there isn't an alternative. Crafting sucks, loot drops are so random and predominantly bad that you are better off trading.

But this concept of trading is flawed from a game design perspective: the market providing useful gear only works with a large enough player base. If your loot drops suck, so do everyone else's. Only by sheer volume of people playing, getting drops, and eventually finding something worth trading, does good gear enter the market.

But if the game's progression feels bad and frustrating, people will stop playing. A ton of people already did. Less people slogging through muck to find marketable loot means the trading experience gets even worse, and the alternatives to trading remain just as worthless as before.

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Razorbeam#1958 написал:

Basically, one build might be able to hit endgame and go straight to T15-enabling gear for a few exalted with no issues. Another might find itself completely stuck for anything less than a few div.

Instead what I would bet mostly happens is fresh characters (no other endgame character) get to endgame and buy what they can afford. This might get the average build/player into a gear state where they can do T6-T8 right away. Then they flop around in maps at that tier for a while leveling, and hoping for loot/currency that will bump them up to the next step.

You are right, they just skip the step of looting and building their character between T1-T8.

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Razorbeam#1958 написал:

It never happens. Drops suck, so they get frustrated that their progress is stuck. So then they take what little currency all that mapping got them, and try to trade into better gear. Now at best they can afford gear to get them to T10-T12.

Thats where I disagree. In my opinion, for players who trade to reach T8-T10 maps, they are 2 issues in their mentality at this moment of the game :
- all loots sucks for them, cause they got some end game stuff and didnt feel their character progressing step by step.
- AND they are looking for almost BiS stuff, cause they didnt progress into the game and are pretty sure they need some perfect gear to progress into T15-pinnacle boss.

Again for most of players who trade, their mentality is not "I have to find loots or craft to improve my stuff" ; its "i have to find loot and sell it or find currencies to buy a better stuff". So they are not looking for a stuff that could upgrade their, with +50 life, better rez, more chaos rez,... They are looking for stuff with 200 life, 3 x 40% rez to sell it dozens of divines and then, buy a better stuff. So ofc, they feel "almost" all loots totally useless !!!

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Razorbeam#1958 написал:

But this concept of trading is flawed from a game design perspective: the market providing useful gear only works with a large enough player base. If your loot drops suck, so do everyone else's. Only by sheer volume of people playing, getting drops, and eventually finding something worth trading, does good gear enter the market.

Its interesting. I personnaly see it like that :
- people who play 15h/day PoE2 at launch (season) reach end game 1rst, then loot some "okay" stuff of end game,
- they sell it for players who play 4h/day, that are happy to have a stuff okay to do some T8-10 maps for few exalted.
- people who play 15h/day have now enough currencies to by their BiS that just a few of players looted. They are now farming the game and so, currencies (rich are richer...).
- people who play 4h/day can just see price of good stuff just skyrockets, they cant afford it, have the feeling they loot nothing cause for them, just BiS gear is a good loot, are frustrated and stop playing the game.

Trade SUCKS for the people late to the party. If you were here for the early market you still got pretty damn good gear in exalt price ranges. Im going to use my experience as an example.... got my spear for 10ex when I still had yet to have 1 div drop.

Following week my level of spear is 20 div across the board.

Who can have fun in that? Brick wall.

Only the first to market get a fair GOOD start. Everything past that point is out of many peoples budget as the market explodes. [Removed by Support]

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You are right, they just skip the step of looting and building their character between T1-T8.

TBF you don't even need gear to get through t1-8.
If you managed to beat act3 Cruel boss you can get to t10.

Its more like enemy scales with damage so much at t10 area you get oneshotted by anything.

This is another big issue with endgame. Enemy damage escalates on a greater level than our mitigation.
Not even sure how enemies scale, because T9 6 mod maps I walk through without issues.
t10... unless I get some really stupid encounter (ie volatile plant or runic expedition aoe nuclear carpetbomb) I don't have issues.
Yet T11 and even white mobs I actually chug flasks because my lifebar just drops and you hope you recover fast enough before the second hit connects.
t12... healing doesn't even matter, because while I build a "tank", there's not much to heal when your health goes to -20% in a single damage.

And I have 7k armor (that apparently 72% mitigation)
75% block chance
60-75-65-20 resistances
and 2.4k hp

So once I got chaos res too all I can do to avoid instant death it to get max res and more hitpoints.

The game rules just crumbles on that level. And GGG admitted the players are technically demigod with those stats, and unless there's oneshot mechanics "theres no other way to make the game challenging".

I have a few ideas how to fix it:
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3774095

And all the mechanics are already in the game.

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Thats where I disagree. In my opinion, for players who trade to reach T8-T10 maps, they are 2 issues in their mentality at this moment of the game :
- all loots sucks for them, cause they got some end game stuff and didnt feel their character progressing step by step.
- AND they are looking for almost BiS stuff, cause they didnt progress into the game and are pretty sure they need some perfect gear to progress into T15-pinnacle boss.

I somewhat agree with this, and I somewhat don't. It's again kind of down to your build, and the dependency on gear. Some builds just need res and max life (or whatever their health replacement of choice is) and they're fine. Others need gem levels, crit, etc etc etc beyond the baseline to feel powerful

Yes the "I need BiS" mentality is counterproductive for looting, and if you look at your gear drops you might get lucky here and there and go "oh, this has 4 lines and 3 are what I need, awesome." This situation is fairly rare by itself, in my 4-characters-worth-of-endgame-mapping experience. Then you need to go add another 2 lines to it, to see if you get "more" of what you need.

If you win the lottery and the two lines you craft are also good for your needs, then you just got a really expensive item for 2 exalted.

If you don't, you crafted two lines you couldn't care less about, and it's now a two exalted orb item, that is probably not worth 1 exalted on trade, because its mods are all full.

The fact that trade exists causes the BiS mentality just sort of organically. You can try to loot gear off the floor and craft it to be "good enough" for your use, but you will probably find a better item on trade for cheaper than your crafting costs would be, and get to skip the RNG besides.

So yes, I agree that needing or wanting perfect gear is a curse, but the system in place facilitates that mentality. If you want everyone to make peace with running the 3 okay lines on whatever they found on the floor, I'd say the game isn't designed to let them. Someone will sell them 1 tick better for 1 exalted, in 99% of cases.

TL;DR The perspective that "trade makes you think the loot you found is bad" is because trade proves the loot you found is bad. It becomes an argument of "you'd be happy eating dirt, if people just didn't sell cheeseburgers."

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Razorbeam#1958 написал:

The fact that trade exists causes the BiS mentality just sort of organically. You can try to loot gear off the floor and craft it to be "good enough" for your use, but you will probably find a better item on trade for cheaper than your crafting costs would be, and get to skip the RNG besides.

I mean we are all the same. If we find a loot thats, even just slightly less good than ours, we will try to sell it. Or if its for another class.
But in my opinion, as a SSF player Im looking for any stuff that its slightly better than mine, in order to improve my character. Most of traders dont do that. That want a BiS or nothing. And so, they dont improve their character and feel loots is useless.

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Razorbeam#1958 написал:

TL;DR The perspective that "trade makes you think the loot you found is bad" is because trade proves the loot you found is bad.

I agree in general we need more and better loots in PoE2. But Im not sure what would happen for trades with more and better loots. Rich will get richer ? BiS would be less expensive because more BiS would be sell or they would remain at the same price cause traders would think players got more currencies ?
Tbh, I think nothing would change for trades after 0.2g update...

The simple fact, we are done with 0.2.x..
Nobody bats an eye, if you reset the eco now and let people do 0.2.0 again. Its not like you would delete somebodys precious content.
Nobody plays it anyways. Its just for the Oh's and Ah's on some list on the internet we are talking about?
Hate to break it. These lists are done for a week now.
So, everybody still playing the game in a "race 100" fashion.
You are too late.
You are too slow.
What is the point now?
Or is it the other way around?
Dont take it personal, its just to point out the obvious.
Only thing I hear all the time is, cant handle more than one char a season.
Everybody hates on how fast you could finish D3 season.
Yeah, on one character it was only a week...

You NEED T15 gear to play T1 or you're dead and wont progress any further.

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Schmu#7195 написал:

listen to him, he that dont want any interaction with other players
why is SSF even played online

If you think "scroll a website outside the game to spam message people until someone answers to get an item" is "interaction with other players"... yeah. It's the shallowest, least interesting "interaction" possible. And that's assuming the people actually respond at all.

There's a reason why Diablo 3 ditched the in game auction house after trying it and why LE provides a "trade is severely limited except with people you're actively playing with" alternative: having to trade to get gear to progress short-circuits the core game loop and removes the fun for a lot of players.

It's even worse here because in those games you can get loot to progress just fine without trading, but here the loot is bad and the "crafting" is basically non-existent, so trading is actually the most viable progression method for most players. If there was real crafting and you could spend currency to progress items it would be different, but since what we've got is gambling, trading is actually far more effective.

If the best way to progress in the game is literally to not play the game, something has gone severely wrong.

I was being sarcastic there if you play without trade and solo then i wish you good luck on finding that one piece of gear with that resistence you need or whatever it is that you need. The items are way to complex you will get stuck at some point in the game, i have tried ssf and ruthless modes in po1 and its only fun till you reach that point.