Build Showcase - Honourable Mentions

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Blooper#6330 написал:

When someone gets bodied by Jamanra repeatedly, that's usually a L2P issue, not "garbage design." The boss has clear telegraphs and counter-play. If certain skills legitimately can't reach endgame that's one thing, but most campaign struggles I see are people face-tanking everything then crying about balance.

Sure, some ascendancies have it rougher early on - but that's always been the ARPG formula. Monk might struggle more than Witch Hunter in Act 1, but both are absolutely viable with proper planning. The genre has never been about making every build path equally easy from minute one.

"Massive effort" is kind of the point of these games though, isn't it?

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keppie#6373 написал:

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Blooper#6330 написал:

When someone gets bodied by Jamanra repeatedly, that's usually a L2P issue, not "garbage design." The boss has clear telegraphs and counter-play. If certain skills legitimately can't reach endgame that's one thing, but most campaign struggles I see are people face-tanking everything then crying about balance.

Sure, some ascendancies have it rougher early on - but that's always been the ARPG formula. Monk might struggle more than Witch Hunter in Act 1, but both are absolutely viable with proper planning. The genre has never been about making every build path equally easy from minute one.

"Massive effort" is kind of the point of these games though, isn't it?

Thanks for keeping it respectful. I will do the same.
However, ..
Your first phrase i feel, misses the mark, when speaking from personal experience.
For several of the characters i levelled, i had moments where i could not pass a certain boss and it was most definitely due to chosen skills and/or obtained gear. If your DPS is too low and you have to fight Jama or any of the others for extended periods of time, no matter your skill level, more often than not, you will end making a single mistake and it'll likely end your attempt. A couple of minutes is what i'd estimate to be the upper limit allowed to make boss fights fair, no more. When i changed my skill or slotted in a better weapon i obtained on another character or bought on trade, i downed them on the first attempt.

I do agree that in all ARPG's, there always were builds/classes that performed better than others, but i didn't play any where some stuff was just so underwhelming that the term 'unplayable' became an appropriate figure of speech to reflect their state. Which brings us back to Dank's original point. That IS the case in POE 2

And 'massive effort' being the point ? IF you're speaking in terms of what happens after bringing your character up to spec to doing most content in the game, namely the repeated grinding to further and further improve your gear, then yes. But it shouldn't require 'massive effort' to level up.

NOTE : And since you're quoting my 'garbage design' on multiple occasions, well, try to see it as how it's intended, namely, my way of slapping a name on the current game's flaws.

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Blooper#6330 написал:

I get what you're saying about gear-gated bosses, but honestly? That's not a design flaw, that's literally how ARPGs work. You hit a wall, you adapt - whether that's respeccing, upgrading gear, or actually learning the mechanics instead of just face-tanking.
The fact that you had to swap weapons or buy gear to progress isn't broken design - it's intended design. POE has always been about making meaningful choices with consequences. If every skill combo could steamroll content with whatever random gear you picked up, what would be the point of the entire itemization system?

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Blooper#6330 написал:

And calling skills "unplayable" because they require more investment or better gear? Come on. That's not unplayable, that's just higher barrier to entry. Some builds are meant to be more challenging - that's the whole point of having different difficulty curves between classes and skills.

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Blooper#6330 написал:

The "massive effort" comment wasn't just about endgame grinding. Learning boss patterns, understanding skill synergies, planning your build - that IS the leveling experience in POE. It's not supposed to be a casual stroll to maps.

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Blooper#6330 написал:

Your "garbage design" label still feels like frustration talking rather than actual analysis of the game's systems.

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Blooper#6330 написал:

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DankWeebTrash#7386 написал:

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Blooper#6330 написал:

Thanks for proving my point? You literally cleared all content as sorc - that's the definition of playable. Having to invest 400 hours and craft your own gear isn't "unplayable," it's called progression in an ARPG.
The fact that you needed specific gear and had to work for it doesn't make the class broken, it makes it challenging. Not everything needs to be handed to players on a silver platter. If 10% can do it consistently, that means it's possible and the other 90% need to improve their approach or accept they're not at endgame level yet.
Your own success story kind of undermines your "unplayable" argument, don't you think?

Not really. For the average person they aren't going to be able to play sorceress. They are probably going to get stuck on Jamanra in the campaign and not want to spend 10 hours grinding levels and gear in keth just to beat one boss. The time investment will make the class "unplayable" to most people. Just like Mount Everest is "unclimbable" for most people. I think you should try a SSF run of sorceress and you'll see it's out of most people's reach.

For context 400 hours is ~1/5th the amount of time the average person spends working in a year (1768 hours) so that's unreachable for most people in 2-4 months.

That's a pretty weird comparison honestly. ARPGs aren't supposed to be accessible to everyone at every level - that's literally the entire genre. If you're getting stuck on Jamanra you probably need to learn the mechanics instead of blaming the class.
I've done SSF sorc and yeah it's tough, but that's the point. The game shouldn't be balanced around people who won't put in basic effort to understand builds or gear progression. Your Everest analogy is backwards - this is more like complaining that intermediate ski slopes are too hard when you refuse to practice on the bunny hill.
Also bringing up work hours is kind of ridiculous. Nobody's forcing anyone to rush endgame in 2 months. Play at your own pace or pick an easier class.

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Sylvaneste#1358 написал:

Nobody's forcing anyone to rush the endgame in 2 months? That is literally what seasons/leagues are. Launch happens and it is a race against the market to be able to buy the gear you want before it becomes 2400 divine. Everyone wants as much as they can out of a character, before the season ends, and we get reset back to nothing. Sure, I guess one could play on standard. I know I mostly did in POE1. But all of the fun, is found in the leagues. Now, if GGG adds league content to standard (bold new concept) or institutes a Borrowing mechanic (think trade only you get the item back after a set time, i plan to post in the suggestion area for this). So that those who want/need specific items. Do not need to treat POE like a second or third job to get "paid" enough to buy the item they want. Then ABSOLUTELY everyone is being forced to rush end game.

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Sylvaneste#1358 написал:

Nobody's forcing anyone to rush the endgame in 2 months? That is literally what seasons/leagues are. Launch happens and it is a race against the market to be

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keppie#6373 написал:

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Blooper#6330 написал:

I get what you're saying about gear-gated bosses, but honestly? That's not a design flaw, that's literally how ARPGs work. You hit a wall, you adapt - whether that's respeccing, upgrading gear, or actually learning the mechanics instead of just face-tanking.
The fact that you had to swap weapons or buy gear to progress isn't broken design - it's intended design. POE has always been about making meaningful choices with consequences. If every skill combo could steamroll content with whatever random gear you picked up, what would be the point of the entire itemization system?

True. But again, that is not the point. It's that obtaining the gear required to beat them, dependent on class and skill selection is absurdly high, and for some skills even that sort of investment won't matter.
Specifically for gear, I've played every major mainstream ARPG i was aware of on release, and most for many years, starting with diablo 1. I've never encountered so much difficulty to obtain the gear required to work through the campaign for SOME of my toons. Others, where i had a 1/1000000 drop, went very well.
It shoudln't be this difficult to get the gear required to progress. It just feels off compared to all other experiences, including POE 1.

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Blooper#6330 написал:

And calling skills "unplayable" because they require more investment or better gear? Come on. That's not unplayable, that's just higher barrier to entry. Some builds are meant to be more challenging - that's the whole point of having different difficulty curves between classes and skills.

In end-game, yes. But in particular for example, i tried levelling a sorc with incinerate, which is one the few skills available to start with, so you'd expect it to be viable, yet it isn't. Feel free to try it out. I had to twink it after arriving in cruel and still abandoned it somewhere in act 3. It's just an absolute nightmare. I tried as many combinations of supports as i could, shuffled points around, tried building around fire, tried building around chaos, and tried both. That skill is just not viable to play through the campaign with, yet is is a starting skill choice. Are you saying you tried every skill there is and had no difficulties with anything ?

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Blooper#6330 написал:

The "massive effort" comment wasn't just about endgame grinding. Learning boss patterns, understanding skill synergies, planning your build - that IS the leveling experience in POE. It's not supposed to be a casual stroll to maps.

Yes, that IS the levelling experience. And if you plan your build yourself, like i always do, it does take time and effort. But it still shouldn't be as gruelling a time as it is for some classes/skills right now.
Casual stroll could mean anything i suppose, depending on personal interpretation. If i take that literally, then i agree. Other that that though, the main challenge should be in end-game.

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Blooper#6330 написал:

Your "garbage design" label still feels like frustration talking rather than actual analysis of the game's systems.

And it is. Both. Frustration that is there due to bad design. If the game were well designed, i wouldn't experience so many issues of frustration. One's always fighting against something. Stat requirements, mana consumption, maxed resists. I never had these issues in any of the other games in such exacerbated ways as i do in this game. And it does breed frustration over time

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Sylvaneste#1358 написал:

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Blooper#6330 написал:

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DankWeebTrash#7386 написал:

Not really. For the average person they aren't going to be able to play sorceress. They are probably going to get stuck on Jamanra in the campaign and not want to spend 10 hours grinding levels and gear in keth just to beat one boss. The time investment will make the class "unplayable" to most people. Just like Mount Everest is "unclimbable" for most people. I think you should try a SSF run of sorceress and you'll see it's out of most people's reach.

For context 400 hours is ~1/5th the amount of time the average person spends working in a year (1768 hours) so that's unreachable for most people in 2-4 months.

That's a pretty weird comparison honestly. ARPGs aren't supposed to be accessible to everyone at every level - that's literally the entire genre. If you're getting stuck on Jamanra you probably need to learn the mechanics instead of blaming the class.
I've done SSF sorc and yeah it's tough, but that's the point. The game shouldn't be balanced around people who won't put in basic effort to understand builds or gear progression. Your Everest analogy is backwards - this is more like complaining that intermediate ski slopes are too hard when you refuse to practice on the bunny hill.
Also bringing up work hours is kind of ridiculous. Nobody's forcing anyone to rush endgame in 2 months. Play at your own pace or pick an easier class.

Nobody's forcing anyone to rush the endgame in 2 months? That is literally what seasons/leagues are. Launch happens and it is a race against the market to be able to buy the gear you want before it becomes 2400 divine. Everyone wants as much as they can out of a character, before the season ends, and we get reset back to nothing. Sure, I guess one could play on standard. I know I mostly did in POE1. But all of the fun, is found in the leagues. Now, if GGG adds league content to standard (bold new concept) or institutes a Borrowing mechanic (think trade only you get the item back after a set time, i plan to post in the suggestion area for this). So that those who want/need specific items. Do not need to treat POE like a second or third job to get "paid" enough to buy the item they want. Then ABSOLUTELY everyone is being forced to rush end game.