VP was never the problem

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zzang написал:

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CaptainWARLORD написал:

You can't handle the truth, that's why you try to wiggle your way out of it in every possible way. Because it's now the lack of interest being the reason that you can't manage what you claim to be doing.

I told you its a time waste like snorkles builds are a waste. Like some hc players he doesnt tackle endgame content just the trash mobs in "red maps".

Snorkle argued that ES is fine before the big nerf hammer came. Reason to justify it was that life could handle the content too, logic - not. You are speaking to a slimy forum politician its really not worth the time.

yeah I think es was fine, my argument was just remove vaal pact. I still believe that. Were now reaching a situation where vaal pact as it was is gone and es is kind of underpowered, if it had its 15% more es etc back it would be in a good place and a lot more es builds would be viable. So ya, Im still firmly with that.

For me it's way easier to build a tanky char in the "left side" (Marauder, Duelist, Ranger/Templar areas) of the tree. You get more life % with less points, a bit Armor % from Rauder and Duelist and Eva % from duelist.

But I'm also way more familiar with the left side, so I dunno.

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Snorkle_uk написал:

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zzang написал:

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CaptainWARLORD написал:

You can't handle the truth, that's why you try to wiggle your way out of it in every possible way. Because it's now the lack of interest being the reason that you can't manage what you claim to be doing.

I told you its a time waste like snorkles builds are a waste. Like some hc players he doesnt tackle endgame content just the trash mobs in "red maps".

Snorkle argued that ES is fine before the big nerf hammer came. Reason to justify it was that life could handle the content too, logic - not. You are speaking to a slimy forum politician its really not worth the time.

yeah I think es was fine, my argument was just remove vaal pact. I still believe that. Were now reaching a situation where vaal pact as it was is gone and es is kind of underpowered, if it had its 15% more es etc back it would be in a good place and a lot more es builds would be viable. So ya, Im still firmly with that.

So its just in my imagination that you advocated for ES back in the days while using VP with it and life is equal to ES back then? BULLSHIT dude its really not worth the time as i said.

You can firmly stay to your word twisting bullcrap i dont care. ES is fine NOW a niche playstyle and not the dominating god mode it used to be. Forget about the 15% more.

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zzang написал:

So its just in my imagination that you advocated for ES back in the days while using VP with it and life is equal to ES back then? BULLSHIT dude its really not worth the time as i said.

You can firmly stay to your word twisting bullcrap i dont care. ES is fine NOW a niche playstyle and not the dominating god mode it used to be. Forget about the 15% more.

I said there was a slight gap, and then when they announced the changes I said the gap between life and es would be far bigger after the changes, but in the other direction, and I think it is. I said youre just gonna have marauder casters again. Es is 1/3 of the possible defense bases, I dont think 1/3 of players are investing in es right now, and thats given the fact that probably 50% are using int aligned skills. I think dont those have proven to be that far off the mark tbh. There was no content you could do with es that you couldnt do with life, there wasnt some massive gap. The gap is so big now theres a lot of build types I just wouldnt even attempt with es, its not "this ones slightly better" its "this one is still great and the other one Im not even convinced its viable". I also said that if you just took out vaal pact the balance between the 2 would be fine.

I think if you look at builds on standard where they still have 20% ring crafts, higher es totals, theres way more self cast and melee type stuff you can do with es and its actually ok, stuff that you just wouldnt bother with in a league now because its too underpowered. Given the general sentiment I was debating against in those threads was that life is completely shit and too underpowered to work in its current state do you really think I was the one who was way off with my claims?





Im sry if weve fallen out at some point zzang, but if you go read this thread with an objective view I dont think youll find its me whos twisting words. We obviously have differing opinions on where es should be and what it should be capable of in terms of build variety. If you dig back through my posts youll find me in the es v life debates saying life is fine, its not at all underpowered, and given they didnt rly buff life at all and now everyones playing it and doing just fine Im still standing by those opinions for the most.


I feel like theres still going to be leechtank options with the new vp in 3.1, and that life attackers on the left and right will still be a thing tons of people play just fine. If Im wrong feel free to quote me on it and you wont hear me claim otherwise.

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Snorkle_uk написал:

This is just my experience so far, everything Ive played tells me the right side has been superior for years now.

I have the same experiences, but it has nothing to do with defenses :)

But if we're solely looking at defenses, I've had better builds on the left side, focusing heavily on health regeneration and mitigation. On the right side? I have tried max dodge+evasion+legacy lightning coil+warband helm. Good build, but you will still face those "from 100% to 5%" hits, and without heavy regeneration, leech or flasks, you're dead - especially if the fight is long. I guess you have a couple of options; regeneration, which the right side lacks, flasks, which is lacking in a long fight unless you're Pathfinder, or leech. But I guess not many fights are long with mirrored gear :)

Look, I'm all for a VP nerf. I'm just saying other adjustments are needed - IF we'd like some sort of build diversity. Because forcing the right side of the tree into a handful of uniques isn't just bad design, it limits build diversity drastically.

I wonder how huge the ragequit thread would be...

Since I toyed with VP like twice and never really liked it (because I was likely playing it wrong) the change just makes me shrug and drive on with what I've done in the past - High regen leech.

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Phrazz написал:

But I guess not many fights are long with mirrored gear :)

well, ud be surprised, as zzang has pointed out i dont really build for damage, I drop a lot of damage people would normally take for more life. On right side builds Im sitting on anything from 6,500 on the ranged builds who need a little less survivability all the way to 9,000 hp on some of these right side melee setups. If my weapon has 35% more dps than the next guy and he took 35% more damage nodes, were probably actually comparable.

Ive not put all my things back together yet after the 3.0 wipe but before that when I would farm guardians with wildstrike I had a bit over 400k dps with a 500pdps dagger. Thats with fenzy charges up, no flasks though, I never count flasks in dps Ive no idea what the pob full flasks and pen and temp buffs inflated total showboat figure would have been i never bother looking at that stuff. I never get dropped to 5% of my life from 100% outside of some shityourpants prenerf volatiles and corpse explosions, some things can certainly chunk down 4k life in a single hit though from time to time, that Ive certainly experienced.





I know what ur saying about pushing builds into certain uniques. I tried to argue for a long time that they should have "20% of phys taken as cold damage" as a prefix on evasion bodyarmour to ease off the way coil was such a gapfiller for an otherwise massively compromised area of defense that we have in evasion, I must have made that suggestion at least 20 times over a period of a year or 2. Eventually we got what, 15%? and it came on an essence which is rare as fuck, so rare that the idea of most people going for the rare chest with the 20% rather than the coil with the 30-40% and hence restoring some kind of sense to the thing was completely lost and honestly i just gave up. I just felt like they either didnt get it or didnt agree. Its 34 chaos for the essence and you need a bunch to get a decent roll, a coil is 1 chaos and its twice as good... great.

They did nerf coil though, and as much as I love the armour I was glad to see that happen. I guess it gets difficult because they added the basalt flask too, but then had to nerf it. Youve got this pressure coming the other way of what is armours place in the game? How many things should be allowed to exist that can replace armour and invalidate the need for the real thing? It could be argued that most rangers go to the duelist and maybe they should just have some level of armour to deal with the damage. How many times do we see the point pushed forward that you should just forget about armour cause the % replacements are either better or simply easier to fit in? Im not entirely sold on those arguments but theyre not completely without merit and I hear them a lot. It is a game ultimately balanced around hearsay and trends more than straight numbers.

Do you like armour without either some level of evasion or block? I think its pretty flimsy too tbh, maybe not quite as deathtrap but I still feel too open to random death for comfort personally.

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CaptainWARLORD написал:

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AsbelFar написал:

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CaptainWARLORD написал:

You know what's funny? You are so against VP, yet you play a VP Berserker in Turmoil :D You are the hypocrite of hypocrites.

You play VP = you're an hypocrite
You don't play VP = you don't know what you're talking about

So convenient.

Please continue!

Correction: VP Berserker*

Anyone who plays VP Berserker while saying VP needs a nerf deserves a slap across the face.

What kind of stupidly contrived logic is that?

VP doesnt just break Zerker. VP breaks everything that has to do with leech.

Leech itself is a rather well balanced mechanic, that is either weak or strong, depending on investment. It is balanced compared to passive regen, heal on block and all other sustain options.

And VP comes and goes: Hey, you remember all the mechanics that we introduced back in the day to balance leech against everything else? We are the balance circumvention keystone.

2% leech can be just as powerful as 100% leech with VP, just depends on your damage and hitpoints.

I learned from this thread that without VP you can't delete shaper anymore with a budget build. Sounds good to me.