Crit Multiplier + Diamond Flask (still) too powerful

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SL4Y3R написал:

I made the same mistake as most people do, I grabbed +cold dmg nodes, mana nodes, +ele nodes, w/e.

Also, it was viable. Very viable. Just, compared to everyone else. It wasn't.

And that's the problem. I think you should be able to do this and not feel like you've made a big mistake. More builds should be vialable rather than less. And damage output for characters with RT should be more similar to damage output from crits, and if it's too low then it should be increased for evereone.

theres gotta be some builds are better than others i shouldnt be able to get CI ACROBATICS and all the status ailment nodes and expect to be as good as an optimized build.

if its like +10% elemental vs +12% cold and you are all cold and get the elemental well you are not using the most efficient build.

and like he said its viable you should not pwn just as much as someone who did a lot of work on math and is on their third version of the same build.

i think GGG did a very good job actually at making ineffecient builds viable as long as some thought was put in and they are well conceived. i dont think it would be a good game if placing 100 nodes randomly gets you the same result as a planned build.

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Dinsdale написал:

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SL4Y3R написал:

I made the same mistake as most people do, I grabbed +cold dmg nodes, mana nodes, +ele nodes, w/e.

Also, it was viable. Very viable. Just, compared to everyone else. It wasn't.

And that's the problem. I think you should be able to do this and not feel like you've made a big mistake. More builds should be vialable rather than less. And damage output for characters with RT should be more similar to damage output from crits, and if it's too low then it should be increased for evereone.

You think someone who crits and an RT character should do the same dmg? Maybe at the very very end.of the gear spectrum. But otherwise, that makes no sense.

i still have a feeling deep inside that tells me diamonds should stay, having them work with only crit builds will nerf builds like mine, and they will restrict a lot of possibly interesting builds. They can be indeed powerful but why not keep powerful things in game?

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Dinsdale написал:

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SL4Y3R написал:

I made the same mistake as most people do, I grabbed +cold dmg nodes, mana nodes, +ele nodes, w/e.

Also, it was viable. Very viable. Just, compared to everyone else. It wasn't.

And that's the problem. I think you should be able to do this and not feel like you've made a big mistake. More builds should be vialable rather than less. And damage output for characters with RT should be more similar to damage output from crits, and if it's too low then it should be increased for evereone.

Disagree. Are you happy with your kill speed and survivability end game? If so, then why does it bother you that another build can do better? If not, I suggest you look to your own build and fix its weaknesses instead of worrying about what other builds utilize.

This is why I keep saying, if you want to nerf something just because its better than your build, then the argument amounts to "Waah waah waah." If that's not the only reason, then skip the crying and get to the point. The "it's better than mine," argument does nothing but waste time and divert the conversation away from being objective discourse.

Other people using diamond flasks does not make your build weaker for not using them. Objectively, diamonds add a great deal of utility when used responsibly (in moderation) to builds that actually would suffer without them. Unfortunately, they are also highly abusable. Whether that means they need to be changed or whether they're just another tool at our disposal, objectively, depends entirely upon whether or not their use affects kill speed in such a way that they can farm at a vastly more efficient rate than a "properly" balanced build, or whether or not they're mandatory for all builds to use excessively.

The latter, I can attest, they certainly are not. The former, I do not know, I've only used diamonds in moderation. What I do know is that you feeling bad because another build uses diamonds and you do not, is completely irrelevant to a discussion about their balance.

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VictorDoom написал:

i still have a feeling deep inside that tells me diamonds should stay, having them work with only crit builds will nerf builds like mine, and they will restrict a lot of possibly interesting builds. They can be indeed powerful but why not keep powerful things in game?

Building crit multi and ignoring crit chance should not work -- instead it gives the highest damage in the game. It's like building attack speed without damage and then popping a "+1000 elemental damage" flask. It's derivative and bad design, and worse than anything it's a gotcha (in much the same way that you get max armor by wearing evasion gear).

Diamond flasks force every crit build into crit-multi only, which is uninteresting since it draws every build on the int/dex side of the tree to 3 passive clusters. DF's force builds by being an order-of-magnitude stronger; if it was a close race between DF and not-DF, then no one would be complaining.

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pneuma написал:

Diamond flasks force every crit build into crit-multi only

It does? I must have missed the memo :( I think Slayer's big block of text a page or two ago sums up how I feel about this rather nicely.

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CanHasPants написал:

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pneuma написал:

Diamond flasks force every crit build into crit-multi only

It does? I must have missed the memo :( I think Slayer's big block of text a page or two ago sums up how I feel about this rather nicely.

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SL4Y3R написал:

I know other builds are. BUT, from what I can tell, many people are abusing diamonds for the sake of single target DPS. Who cares?

It takes a lot of points to attain both circles of crit multi. A LOT. Those other points could have easily gone into cast speed, base dmg, (those easy access crit chance nodes), what have you. By sacrificing all those, many of their builds suffer.

Just because one says, "I have 125k DPS!!!". Guess what, that person is using flicker strike (or cleave), and cannot maintain a large AoE or well anything compared to my build. Their build suffers because they are locked into the mindsight of high DPS. Even if it doesn't mean anything in terms of the game itself.

Yes.

For people that care about efficiency, you take the crit multi, take the diamond flasks, and then have every other point you would spend on damage to spend on defenses instead. The end result is a build that does more DPS and has more survivability.

You're free to build a stat-point-only passive tree since diamond flasks don't affect how you play the game, but the gulf between builds that abuse crit multi and those that do not is vast and wide.

EDIT: Oh right, and that's only talking about passives. You get a similar effect by throwing away all your crit chance gear and using crit multi instead where possible. Or by swapping out any other damage support gem in the game for Increased Crit Multi (since nothing compares to the damage it gives while DFs exist).

I haven't played my crit build to end game yet, since I'm reserving it for OB (and I don't want to get bored of it before then), so take note that I do not have experience in this arena yet. But my gut tells me there's a more efficient way to dole out aoe dps and maintain superb defenses, without requiring diamond spam (ergo why I'm reserving my crit build for OB). Both in terms of the passive tree and hunting/crafting rare mods. I could be wrong.

What I do know is that, "for people who care about efficiency," diamond flasks are not forcing them into anything, their prerogatives are.

If Diamond flasks stay unchanged come OB you might aswell call the game Path of Crit & label Default the Diamond Flask League cos that's the only builds you are gonna see ppl play. Probably by that point we will see the people who are currently defending it saying stuff like "the game is getting stale cos everyone plays the same build".

The more that can be done to encourage build diversity the better. Having 5 crit flasks is not 'a build' & anyone interested in keeping the game diverse should realise that crit flasks do more to pigeon hole the game & damage build diversity then the few builds it adds.

People like high DPS & currently the only way to compete in that regard is to have a Diamond Flask build.