the biggest "LIE" of this game...
" " 14 templates for builds in a turbo charged HC league doing end game play. I'm not sure how much more diversity you really need. He says there's more templates in nemesis, and I'm sure dom has 2-3x that without the worry about only 1 death. Standard probably has 10x that, because of all the niche gear allowing for odd builds. @Cronk, and yes there is a difference between freezing pulse and fireball. The same difference there could be between a fire and cold sorc. While they can have similar trees you can make them completely different, CI freezing pulse and an EB fireballer. I mean, there's certain highways on the tree most builds will end up sticking to but how is this different than any game, no one knows how to code "infinity" so there has to be some restrictions even in a very limitless game. For example minecraft may let you build whatever you want but there's a limit on all the resources available. Finished 17th in Rampage - Peaked at 11th
Finished 18th in Torment/Bloodline 1mo Race - peaked at 9th Null's Inclination Build 2.1.0 - https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1559063 Summon Skeleton 1.3 - https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1219856 |
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" Yes, this is the bit where no-one seems to get what I'm on about. Of course Freezing Pulse is 'different' to Fireball, you're going to take different nodes. But that wasn't the point of what I was saying about build 'diversity'. The two builds will still interact with their environment in exactly the same way. Perhaps it's the a of the aRPG which is causing this, in that whatever character you choose, you want pure DPS, because pure DPS is the only thing that matters in an aRPG (aside from the HP/ES no-brainer). And, yes, it is indeed entertaining to prioritise killing stuff instead of talking to stuff, that's the whole point of the a in aRPG. But, in terms of 'build diversity' what does the game offer besides some form of Battlemage? Why is the Witch a significantly different 'character' to a Shadow. When you play a Witch or Shadow, do you 'feel' that you are playing a different 'character' or just a different DPS build. I was saying that what you're talking about is not 'build diversity' but, rather 'skill diversity'. Nephalim was saying that what I'm talking about is 'class diversity' rather than 'build diversity'. Because, to me, a build starts at character creation. You build out from a pre-described 'Role' - the R in RPG which frames the 'context' of your build and initiates build 'diversity' in the first place. To Nephalim, a build has nothing to do with what 'role' you're playing, but is just the variety of skills you choose to pick up along the way, you're initial context for your character being which skills you want to go with. He suggested (wrongly) that I wanted some form of class-restricted aspect to the game to solve the R of RPG element, or that that would be the only solution. I said that isn't what I was suggesting, because my posts are not suggestion posts, they are simply posts describing why PoE might have 'different' but it doesn't have 'diversity', it might have 'great variety' and it might even, at a stretch, be called 'great diversity', but that whatever it is that it has, it's no larger and, in fact must be, lesser in 'diversity' than a game which has extensive character creation screens. I don't believe PoE needs character creation screens to create variety (diversity), I'm not entirely sure what would be the best method to create 'diversity', but there are plenty of options there. And I think the reason for the current state of affairs is because the game neither offers one skin with access to everything, nor does it offer specific classes with access to specific things - it's in a middle ground which makes 'diversity' harder than if the devs prioritised one direction over the other. Imagine if you will, only one start location with one skin. Then the game is completely and totally choose your own destiny, no ifs no buts, and you could add and remove 'diverse builds (keystones and paths)' almost at will with very little 'balancing' issues. From a financial point of view, all the other skins could have been sold as Micros. Conversely, and from a class-specific angle, imagine if a Shadow actually had innate skills, such as a natural talent for Evasion in darkened areas (say EV 100% bonus in dark areas) and a natural talent for theft (natural 30% IIR and IIQ) - and now imagine similar natural bonuses for all classes before they even start the tree-skills. From a financial point of view, you could sell more Micros as more parties 'require' certain builds for certain stages of the game and those builds will want to 'look' the business with the appropriate Micros (instead of random general Micros that rely on personal preference and group peer pressure, they would have a more 'natural' demand). Hope this makes more sense. |
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Are you a politician? Long and drawn out all while attack your opponent.
You want something that makes each class unique rather than just a unique starting point. While mild differences I'm for I like how the tree is now. Basically when you take a class you can take passives from the immediate neighbors and if you want to go 2 classes over, or even 3, it's going to mean giving up stuff in your area. There's a give and take, you don't just make a duelist for CI, there needs to be a good reason because it's much less effective than a shadow or witch doing the same. You say there's not much difference between a shadow or a witch but there is a difference between a shadow and a mara. The differences are more minor and deal with what they are allowed to reach easier than the other. For example, witch can make fire builds that are better than shadow, also tankier because a witch can reach out towards the fire passives between mara/duelist, getting all the life/armor/end charge passives while on the way, still getting their spell damage but ignoring shadow's crit/elemental damage. Shadow can do a physical crit bow build, while witches won't be as effective. Get all the crit/bow passives near duelist, able to get all but 1 power charge. There's not much difference between a lvl 40-60 witch and shadow but there's a ton of difference between a lvl 1-35 and 70-100 witch and shadow. It's actually the reason everyone is screaming about scion being OP at this point because it's one class that can be the same or more powerful than every build from 40+, while it's early game is weaker, it isn't weak. Also to clarify my point, fireball and freezing pulse are different beyond just a literal meaning of being 2 different skills. There's all the defensive options for one. Then there's the skills. Fireball build based on large upfront damage or backend damage, high crit/large non-crit damage or focus on burning damage either through crit or chance to ignite. For freezing pulse, are you using it for clear speed or for CC? Should you get chance to freeze stuff, maybe even use taryrn to make up for the dps loss of focusing on freezing things. Or maybe you just want high dps period, get crit and crit damage. Maybe you want to do large non-crits, prolif shock stacks similar to kripp's build from OB. Yes, they are different skills, but depending on your goals they can be completely different trees, classes, gear requirement, everything. I've done a crit fireball templar and it was inspired by my friend's ignite fireball mara. Builds were radically different, besides some templar life passives. The game has a tremendous amount of diversity, it's not even hard to find. BTW, I can do this with any skill/class combos you'd like. I've done probably close to 50-75 builds by this point, 30-50 over 70 (between CB, alpha and since OB including dead HC toons I've deleted), all avoiding cookie cutter builds, some being the same as cookie cutter just using a different build template completely. Finished 17th in Rampage - Peaked at 11th
Finished 18th in Torment/Bloodline 1mo Race - peaked at 9th Null's Inclination Build 2.1.0 - https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1559063 Summon Skeleton 1.3 - https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1219856 |
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Before I started I was astonished by the amount of skills and passives.
But once you learn the game, you notice as you progress certain supports are no-brainer. And with these supports the result application of %80 of skills end up being almost the same with different cosmetics only. The number of really different skills like dominating blow are so limited in PoE. Almost all mobility skills are unreliable thanks to desynch. Gameplay of 'hundreds of diverse builds' actually cuts down into a few categories. Why would I consider a FP totam build different than an incinerate totem one? That is not diversity it is cosmetic difference. Same goes for dual-strike+melee splash build vs 2handed cleave build. I can go as far as saying playing a split arrow/bow skill+LMP/GMP build is not different at all from playing a fireball+LMP/GMP build or a ST build. Hack even %80 of CoC builds play that same way. You do the same thing with different stats associated to them. Every single build in PoE cuts down to: - Curse - AoE attack in some form(range/melee/spell does not matter. you shift click either way) with life leech /OR/ Totem or summons that fight with its own AI for you. Stat diversity can not make up for gameplay diversity and PoE lacks gameplay diversity. |
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" What the hell is "gameplay diversity." It's an ARPG, you click a few buttons and kill hordes of monsters from an over the top view with your chosen few abilities. In shooters you shoot people with slight variants of the same gun with a few major different types. Hell in league of legends every character literally has 4 abilities and 2 summoners and many of the characters follow a similar format with variations of the same mechanic. Последняя редакция: RagnarokChu#4426. Время: 29 янв. 2014 г., 19:00:05
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@moosifer
No, you don't get it and you've started with an insult, just the same as Nephalim. All RPGs have 'huge variety' if you count the difference between a Long Sword + Shield as being a different build to a Short Sword + Shield as being different to a Bastard Sword + Shield. If those are your criteria, then every RPG ever made has 'incredible build Diversity'. When you run a party of six, which 'builds' do people say 'We could really do with an XYZ build in this party'? - that is the R of RPG. When you run solo, aside from DPS and HP considerations, what makes you 'feel' like you're running a Witch rather than a Shadow, from an R of RPG perspective? Yes, I get that you can adapt to the current system and because you're used to it you can manipulate it for XYZ DPS scenario, but your characters are still 'reacting to their environment' in exactly the same way - they are walking along dishing out DPS, with no areas that are specifically designed to be easier or harder than any other build/skill - and if they are then all that's required is a Gem swap - not the assistance of a 'different' character and not a significant difficulty spike for doing a non-character designed area. They can all open chests with equal ease, they can all carry the same amount of equipment, they can all buy and sell items for exactly the same price, there is nowhere in the game where one build reacts to the environment differently to another build. They only react to other 'skills' differently and that even then the skills differential is incredibly easily overcome. |
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" Your somehow mistaking arpgs for crpgs or old school hardcore rpgs like icewind dale or baldurs gate. I love games like that to death but I didn't go into PoE expecting something similar to them ;v Последняя редакция: RagnarokChu#4426. Время: 29 янв. 2014 г., 19:04:05
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" Neither did I. But the 'argument' was about 'build diversity'. You can't claim that the game has 'huge build diversity' and then claim that it shouldn't have build diversity because it's an aRPG. As with how all this started: "Huge build diversity - IN COMPARISON TO WHAT?" |
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" I didn't claim the game has huge build diversity, I said that if the starting point is D2 (point in which people use to define what is an amazing arpg is) then the amount of build diversity is the same. Build diversity in itself is a lie because eventually you'll exhaust all optimal paths and know the best way to do everything, even with table top games with almost seemingly endless amount of content and diversity will eventually cap off. Build diversity is bad when it doesn't give almost every single type of player a way to play their own variant of a big archetype of characters. Even better if you can have major variations in each variant or archtype. Outside of that there's no point in bitching other then adding in other ideas to improve it because your simply just crying that there isn't enough on the premises you could do more. Последняя редакция: RagnarokChu#4426. Время: 29 янв. 2014 г., 19:24:49
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" Are you considering my joke an insult, stupid? (that's an insult) Are you that thin skinned? Fucking relax. I thought I was talking to adults not babies who can't handle a stupid joke. You don't have enough playing experience, also like Ragnarok pointed out you're expecting more than the game is intended to give (Which ragnarok you're quickly becoming my new favorite person). There are weaknesses and strengths to each build which you discover as you try to make them. The problem with seeing it clearly is ARPGs all have a common theme, start as a child, end as a god. So once you get to the end game, powerful builds all seem to lack any weakness. My fireball crit build vs the ignite build for example. I did more unfront damage, so I didn't need to be as tanky because I killed shit before it reached me. I went with EB to handle the high mana cost. The ignite build on the other hand, is doing lower upfront cost but good damage over a longer period of time, so he has to accept that he's going to get swarmed and have to be able to handle the incoming damage, requiring end charges, good armor and high life (he might have had a shield too...this is CB days so struggling to remember). Because of his tanky nature he could handle kiting high life mobs, I on the other hand couldn't as easily. Two builds, same skill, different strengths and different weakness, even different playstyles. Finished 17th in Rampage - Peaked at 11th
Finished 18th in Torment/Bloodline 1mo Race - peaked at 9th Null's Inclination Build 2.1.0 - https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1559063 Summon Skeleton 1.3 - https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1219856 |
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