Feedback from a PoE player who started playing D3 again

actually munky, suprisingly Stark isn't being rude or offensive in any way.

He is providing feedback about a game he DID enjoy playing, PoE, and comparing it with a game HE is enjoying more at the moment.


It doesn't mean we have to agree with him. He isn't even making a declaritive statement of D3 > Poe, He is saying 'here is what I disliked about PoE, and here is how D3 handled the same situation which I enjoy more'


I don't understand the point of being rude to him. I disagree with his opinions on a personal level because what he enjoys out of one game, I dislike.

But that doesn't mean his feedback is less valid, and perhaps there is a benefit to his feedback aswell. Loot feedback is a difficult one to discuss because you always have people going "stop talking about loot its perfect", and with trading existing it also devolves into stupid comments about trading being required (when it isn't).

Overall it is a well written OP, and it isn't attacking anyone in particular, merely explaining his reasons for the change. And unlike most "I Quit" threads, he isn't saying he is leaving because he hates GGG or anything, he clearly DID enjoy playing PoE during his time here because he is spending time discussing said game despite preferring to spend his time playing D3 instead

Here's my feedback: it's fun to climb the item spiral for about ~20 hours because you're constantly getting rewarded for playing, but then you realize it's still as bland and shallow as pre-2.0 because the itemization barely got more complex (this could still improve with RoS) and there is simply no character customization. Every now and then when I want to turn my brain off and simply slash monsters in a stylish way I play D3 because it's fun. When I want the real ARPG deal I play PoE.

Btw because I'm pretty much forced to play self-found in Invasion I find upgrades all the time for my character. Might be luck but it doesn't feel much worse than in D3.

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allbusiness написал:

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Veta321 написал:

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allbusiness написал:

What's funny is that I always hear the silliest arguments against making it finding easier to find items, when in reality, the reason why so many people rerolled in Diablo 2 was due to the abundant amount of items from duping/botting.

At first glance this argument seems sound, but on further inspection it is not. If we take POE's own standard leagues into consideration, with their in-game form of duping (mirroring) and severe item/currency saturation, why is it not lauded like Diablo 2?

I would posit what made Diablo 2 standard leagues enjoyable was their facility of economic mobility through the system of gems and runes. Granted there are various stages of Diablo 2's economic development and what is true in some is not true in others (SoJ currency for example), but what has held true throughout was the viability of farming gems and runes which fueled crafting for PvP and ultimately allowed new players to climb the economic ladder, acquiring their nearly BiS items along the way.

So, what really made Diablo 2's permanent leagues function? It wasn't item saturation. It was the facility of acquiring currency (gems/runes) while building a new character and that currency being consumed by the PvP community, thus reestablishing demand. POE has no PvP community to speak of and therefore little demand, but even if it did it would not demand currencies which are low level exclusive. Additionally crafting in POE encourages vast preliminary accumulation and as a result the opposite is also true, that players without vast reserves of currency are discouraged from crafting.

People in standard reroll or make new characters all the time. It's the test bed to make new characters because the abundant amount of items out there at relatively low cost. Only the premium top end items are out of this world expensive.

In Invasion/HC/Nemesis, etc. people literally play one character the whole time unless they die.

Exactly this.

I know people in standard that respec pretty much every other day because they're constantly trying to find new builds for their new GG gear. It's acknowledged as the testing ground for pretty much anything because there's legacy and ultra high end items abound.

The problem is that standard is also different from D2, where all the best top, high end BiS items were pretty much duped to oblivion. In standard, the very best high end items are so rare and so expensive that typically only those players with other super high end items that they can charge mirror fees for can afford. So in other words, it's exactly the opposite of D2, where you can fully deck out a character for cheap. Standard you can acquire really good gear for very cheap, but for BiS gear it's more expensive than pretty much any other league.

Hardly anybody wants to reroll in this game unless they're bored out of their wits or don't care about completing builds. Why? Because itemization and acquiring the right items for a new character in this game is hard and boring as fuck.

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UnderOmerta написал:

Скрытый текст

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allbusiness написал:

People in standard reroll or make new characters all the time. It's the test bed to make new characters because the abundant amount of items out there at relatively low cost. Only the premium top end items are out of this world expensive.

In Invasion/HC/Nemesis, etc. people literally play one character the whole time unless they die.

Exactly this.

I know people in standard that respec pretty much every other day because they're constantly trying to find new builds for their new GG gear. It's acknowledged as the testing ground for pretty much anything because there's legacy and ultra high end items abound.

The problem is that standard is also different from D2, where all the best top, high end BiS items were pretty much duped to oblivion. In standard, the very best high end items are so rare and so expensive that typically only those players with other super high end items that they can charge mirror fees for can afford. So in other words, it's exactly the opposite of D2, where you can fully deck out a character for cheap.

In other words, you don't see it as the same thing as D2's "legacy" because you're jealous other people have shiny things you don't.

Seriously. That's the only reason for you to think that way.

You admit that getting very, very good gear for trade in Standard is very, very easy. You acknowledge this makes it a testing ground for new builds. But there's no instant-gratification duping cheat button, so now you have a problem.

Zero sympathy from me.

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ScrotieMcB написал:

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UnderOmerta написал:

Скрытый текст

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allbusiness написал:

People in standard reroll or make new characters all the time. It's the test bed to make new characters because the abundant amount of items out there at relatively low cost. Only the premium top end items are out of this world expensive.

In Invasion/HC/Nemesis, etc. people literally play one character the whole time unless they die.

Exactly this.

I know people in standard that respec pretty much every other day because they're constantly trying to find new builds for their new GG gear. It's acknowledged as the testing ground for pretty much anything because there's legacy and ultra high end items abound.

The problem is that standard is also different from D2, where all the best top, high end BiS items were pretty much duped to oblivion. In standard, the very best high end items are so rare and so expensive that typically only those players with other super high end items that they can charge mirror fees for can afford. So in other words, it's exactly the opposite of D2, where you can fully deck out a character for cheap.

In other words, you don't see it as the same thing as D2's "legacy" because you're jealous other people have shiny things you don't.

Seriously. That's the only reason for you to think that way.

You admit that getting very, very good gear for trade in Standard is very, very easy. You acknowledge this makes it a testing ground for new builds. But there's no instant-gratification duping cheat button, so now you have a problem.

Zero sympathy from me.

This is the biggest strawman I've ever heard. Seriously. Do you always distort people's words to fit your interest, or only when you have nothing better to say?

The argument was that D2 was very replayable because best-in-slot gear is readily available and fairly easy to acquire. Thus people in D2 constantly rerolled and remade characters.

The counter-argument was that standard is "pseudo D2" and yet apparently this does not happen.

The counter-counter-argument was that standard isn't quite D2 (though closer to it than the new leagues) and still people reroll all the time (more than the new leagues).

Do you follow yet? Do I need to mail you some flash cards?

D3 is designed for casual players. There's no competitive aspect at all, if you're constantly finding upgrades eventually that will end and as there's no real trading or PVP there's no reason to get BIS gear. You play until you're bored and move on to the next new game. Blizzard's goal is to get that 60 bucks, give people a relaxed and enjoyable gameplay experience then pump out the next game. If you enjoy it sweet but comparing it to POE just doesn't make sense anymore.

When D3 first came out it made sense because both games were being compared to D2. But as D3 moved forward it's clear their intention wasn't to make a stand alone game that lasts for 10+ years similar to D2.

POE is for the hardcore scene, it's for the competitive people. It's for people looking for different builds. Those looking for a challenge.

They are vastly different games and it makes no sense to compare them anymore. It's the same as comparing POE to LoL or DOTA2, different games, different goals and different targeted audiences.

If you enjoy D3, awesome. But changing POE to get D3 crowd will not work in POE's favor.

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Moosifer написал:

POE is for the hardcore scene, it's for the competitive people. It's for people looking for different builds. Those looking for a challenge.

They are vastly different games and it makes no sense to compare them anymore. It's the same as comparing POE to LoL or DOTA2, different games, different goals and different targeted audiences.

If you enjoy D3, awesome. But changing POE to get D3 crowd will not work in POE's favor.

It's funny that you mention this. Because if you poll people from games with big competitive scenes (e.g. League/Dota, the CS series, SC/SC2, even the D2 PvP scene), and the one thing that will constantly be mentioned is that those games are competitive because of the large amount of player-based skill that goes into the game at the highest level. That is, the game is fundamentally designed to be that the player with the better input skill is going to be the player that wins or succeeds more often than the player with lower input skill.

PoE is clearly NOT that model. Look at D2. Most of the best builds for PvP relied almost exclusively on BiS gear, of which there was very little variation. Almost everybody used the same few helms, shields, chests, belts, etc. Thus, in high level D2 PvP the result almost entirely came down to who was able to better position and maneuver their character offensively and defensively. THAT is the kind of game that "hardcore" and "competitive" players like.

People brandy the term "hardcore" in PoE all the time and I fail to see how it applies. The PvP scene in PoE is pretty much nonexistent and poorly balanced (and it's already released, so saying that more will be added and that balance will come 'later' is a poor excuse), and you'd be hard pressed to argue that endgame PvE is balanced around 'hardcore' and 'competitive' player skill. More likely it's balanced around people who spend the most time trading and grinding and those we get very lucky.

@ OP; I appreciate you giving feedback in a constructive, non-abrasive/offensive/trollish manner. My friends keep telling me how awesome "the new" D3 is, and I think back to when I played D3 after it came out. I face rolled everything with every class, got bored and literally had no desire to go back to the game. I got the best gear in the game because of the AH so it presented no challenge and no thought due to a substantial lack of build diversity. I admit it sounds exciting to play D3 again with the current and forth coming changes, but I can't help but to think that I'll be back at square one with D3 within 20-30 hours for the same reason: substantial lack of build diversity.

I'm glad that you like D3 and I hope that PoE improves in ways that will bring you back to the game, and I agree with some of your grievances. PoE can feel extremely unrewarding at times due to the ultra-RNG-hates-you nature of this game. Apparently there are players on here that RNG does not hate, and gives them many 5/6 Links, undending Exalts/Eternals and Mirrors, I on the other hand am not one of those. I've never had a Mirror drop, never seen an albino Rhoa, never had a 6 link drop period. Yet I joined in April of 2012 and am still playing today. Why? Because of substantial build diversity. There are literally too many builds for me to even contemplate! Even with terrible RNG and a game that literally despises solo/self-found players, I take the abuse and love every second of it.

I would be tempted to re-install D3 again and try it out, but due to my lack of space on this SSD I would have to remove PoE just to install D3 and, well, that simply would feel wrong for me :p. For me I don't think there is anything Blizzard can do to D3 to make me want to play again, unless it completely emulates a PoE experience, but then why leave PoE for a fake albeit polished version? I hope I am making sense, I have had far too much Bulleit bourbon tonight and am not exactly sober lol.

To sum it up, for me D3 lacks build diversity, PoE does not lack build diversity. I play ARPGs for build diversity. And since this was a F2P game, whenever GGG decides to let us pay for a full on solo/self-found league without requiring trading to perfect your end-game build, I'd be willing to dish out another $60 for that, and be eternally grateful in the process. I wish you luck with D3 and let us know if you get bored with it!

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ScrotieMcB написал:

In other words, you don't see it as the same thing as D2's "legacy" because you're jealous other people have shiny things you don't.

Seriously. That's the only reason for you to think that way.

You admit that getting very, very good gear for trade in Standard is very, very easy. You acknowledge this makes it a testing ground for new builds. But there's no instant-gratification duping cheat button, so now you have a problem.

Zero sympathy from me.

So it comes full circle. The crux of my now quote-slain original comment was that D2 standard allowed the economic mobility necessary to gear your player out in (near) BIS. POE standard affords no such mobility and as such it frustrates players who have the heart but not the wherewithal. It seems to me that's what this boils down to. Player's want the capacity to acquire those top end items within some reasonable time frame of playing the game, not the trading game. Dupes or not it was possible to farm your own Windforce in Diablo 2 with some persistence and time, or to trade for it with currency accumulated during typical play.

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Veta321 написал:

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ScrotieMcB написал:

In other words, you don't see it as the same thing as D2's "legacy" because you're jealous other people have shiny things you don't.

Seriously. That's the only reason for you to think that way.

You admit that getting very, very good gear for trade in Standard is very, very easy. You acknowledge this makes it a testing ground for new builds. But there's no instant-gratification duping cheat button, so now you have a problem.

Zero sympathy from me.

So it comes full circle. The crux of my now quote-slain original comment was that D2 standard allowed the economic mobility necessary to gear your player out in (near) BIS. POE standard affords no such mobility and as such it frustrates players who have the heart but not the wherewithal. It seems to me that's what this boils down to. Player's want the capacity to acquire those top end items within some reasonable time frame of playing the game, not the trading game. Dupes or not it was possible to farm your own Windforce in Diablo 2 with some persistence and time, or to trade for it with currency accumulated during typical play.

It's not the question of whether or not "economic mobility" is a preference or not, rather the question boils down to, "which leads to more replays/rerolls/respecs/etc".

Given that D2 has 10+ years of people rerolling character after character, I think that question has largely been answered. Outside of standard league, where pretty much everything in the game except for the mirror-worthy items are worth peanuts, POE people only tend to reroll if they die (HC) or if a new league begins (SC). In the first case it's because they have to, and in the second case it's because there's more "economic mobility" in a new league.

So gee, I wonder which method is more sustainable for the long haul?