Reflect Damage

strawman arguments are bad arguments frostraven.

Currently reflect is not that bad. It makes you build around it, it is something to be aware of, but it can be dealt with.

So if people can reach level 100 in a HC league like invasion or beyond, surely they can survive reflect, and you can too!

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Kagari написал:

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Apos91 написал:

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mark1030 написал:

VP and MoM are always options. You just have to want to live more than you want to have high DPS.

It's even easier to deal with reflect with spell casters than with archers because you can get spell block. I ran a max spell block witch in Ambush that got to be my highest level character at 92. I gave up some DPS to go down and get Vaal Pact and Unwavering Stance. That was the tankiest character I ever had.

Actually, it's very easy for archers to deal with reflect, the answer is always arctic armour. And out of the 4 classes that can make really good archers (witch/shadow/ranger/duelist), 3 of them have the luxury of accessing EB to sustain that spell. Only the duelist suffers.

Even if you are an elemental archer, it will block the physical and fire portions and make everything else sustainable with LGOH.

I currently have 25% spell block, 89% resist of my element with flask and 1% leech from doryani's with vaal pact and yet i still die extremely easilly to map mod reflect and won't be over it until I get life leech added to the support list. (which i currently can't because if I replace any of the current 5L i won't be able to complete any map higher than level 72, with spell echo being the only possible gem available for replacement.)

Rare monster reflect isn't a problem to be honest. Map reflect is a bit over the top and sets the bar too high.

AA doesn't work in all scenarios. It absorbs numerous small hits like split arrow or tornado, but can't absorb huge hits.

VP can't counter huge bursts either, because of the 40% efficiency nerf. My arcer loses life on reflect maps with 2% light leech on gear PLUS LL gem when my topaz is empty. The more i'll lower my damag to counter this, the less dmg i'll leech. The versatility of lightning dmg makes it unpredictable.

Block or evasion both have a cap. Crit a big offscreen mob pack you can't see with a high rolled ice shot and you're dead if it goes through your entropy. It's a gamble.

Split and tornado shot are the 2 skills that the majority of archer builds will use to clear maps and puncture only needs 1 good shot and the bleed takes care of the rest without being reflected.

So, in that regard, it is quite easy for most archer builds to take care of reflect with AA.

Obviously, the keyword is "most", I have no doubt that some archer builds might run into problems one way or another, similarly to how some caster builds have easier time dealing with it as well. (mostly fire builds, once again due to AA.)

Although that's technicalities and I don't want to get on them when we're of the same argumentation. My argument was against the guy saying that archer builds have trouble dealing with reflect, when in reality most of them don't. I assume he is obsessed with acro and phase acros and never bothered trying AA.

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Real_Wolf написал:

strawman arguments are bad arguments frostraven.

Currently reflect is not that bad. It makes you build around it, it is something to be aware of, but it can be dealt with.

So if people can reach level 100 in a HC league like invasion or beyond, surely they can survive reflect, and you can too!

You reach level 100 in HC leagues by avoiding things that will kill you, not by overcoming them. Sorry to break it to you.

And to those who say "scale down your DPS":

That's absolutely retarded. So for one occasional map mod that appears a minority of the time, people should gimp themselves against content that appears a majority of the time?

Furthermore, it's far more difficult to "scale up your defenses" at a point. Got your 75% res all? Got your immortal call setup? Got your Ondar's Guile/Arctic Armor? Got your 150%ish life?

Then what? Pray to RNGesus for good gear with tons of life rolls, or trade for a Lightning Coil?

Also, what about builds such as CoC EK? That's basically "no matter what, phys reflect instagimps you".

There are plenty of ways of cranking damage in this game, and AFAIK, the difficulty of mobs is usually centered around "challenge the people who crank their DPS to lulz levels". Meaning once you run into a reflect map mod, well, what happens? You need high DPS to not get swamped, but if you have high DPS, you get murdered by reflect.

See the issue?

Also, do you see why blizzard removed Iron Maiden from Chaos Sanctuary?

Just because it's possible to play around something, that something A) shouldn't outright murder you in one second if you fire a bit too far, or hit too many mobs, and B) that something should have some form of ability to take absolutely zero from the retaliation besides "have large enough numbers that you don't gimp yourself in a second."

And also, before you say lifeleech: if you want lifeleech to instantly apply, you need vaal pact, which cuts it down to 40% of original damage, so if you want to simply break even with phys reflect, you need 35% lifeleech. And even if you get 75% spell block (stone+rathpith) + somehow maxing out block w/o wearing BoR, you *still* need around 9% lifeleech from physical spells.

So basically, this one mod effectively taxes players in completely disproportionate ways.

When the answer to "how does this build deal with reflect" isn't "oh, I just take the map a little more slowly", then it's obnoxious. Every single difficulty mod should be able to be played around, not necessitate a massive overhaul.

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Apos91 написал:

Split and tornado shot are the 2 skills that the majority of archer builds will use to clear maps and puncture only needs 1 good shot and the bleed takes care of the rest without being reflected.

So, in that regard, it is quite easy for most archer builds to take care of reflect with AA.

Obviously, the keyword is "most", I have no doubt that some archer builds might run into problems one way or another, similarly to how some caster builds have easier time dealing with it as well. (mostly fire builds, once again due to AA.)

Although that's technicalities and I don't want to get on them when we're of the same argumentation. My argument was against the guy saying that archer builds have trouble dealing with reflect, when in reality most of them don't. I assume he is obsessed with acro and phase acros and never bothered trying AA.

AA requires its own massive amount of investment to actually keep it going, otherwise whoops, you're out of mana in a flash. If it didn't have the "costs you a zillion mana if you move a single step" property, you'd have a leg to stand on.

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Real_Wolf написал:

strawman arguments are bad arguments frostraven.

Currently reflect is not that bad. It makes you build around it, it is something to be aware of, but it can be dealt with.

So if people can reach level 100 in a HC league like invasion or beyond, surely they can survive reflect, and you can too!

And all you need to do to survive Reversal of Fortune (Armor and resistances is turned negative) is to NOT take all the defence you can get, but build around it instead.

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the exception is that one enforces skill (you can't just tank everything with near infinite health, but have to be careful about who hits you), and the other is just based on luck (if you hit something with your primary skill, you die).

I still disagree that its based on luck. Its not 'if you hit you die' its 'if you don't prepare and pay attention to what you are doing you die'

Its entirely possible to STOP aoe spamming a huge pack because you see the aura well before they get close to you, and switch tos ingle target to take it out.

And there are very few single targets where you oneshot yourself, and if they do then you can always run a gear switch specifically for that.


The idea about CoC EK is also funny, because VD just posted a great vid of him doing uberatziri, and he had IC up 99% of the time, so that is totally something you can do with the CoC build too for physical damage.



I think this is more a case of people get unhappy that they can't faceroll everything without paying any attention. They feel that its the games job to not kill them rather than to alter how they do things themselves.

People comment about D2 and iron maiden, but guess what, I played with iron maiden as a WW barb and DID NOT CARE. I just played better. And they still have cold immune when in classic the only viable sorc build is ice based. So yeah, D2 fucks you harder than PoE

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IlyaK1986 написал:

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Apos91 написал:

Split and tornado shot are the 2 skills that the majority of archer builds will use to clear maps and puncture only needs 1 good shot and the bleed takes care of the rest without being reflected.

So, in that regard, it is quite easy for most archer builds to take care of reflect with AA.

Obviously, the keyword is "most", I have no doubt that some archer builds might run into problems one way or another, similarly to how some caster builds have easier time dealing with it as well. (mostly fire builds, once again due to AA.)

Although that's technicalities and I don't want to get on them when we're of the same argumentation. My argument was against the guy saying that archer builds have trouble dealing with reflect, when in reality most of them don't. I assume he is obsessed with acro and phase acros and never bothered trying AA.

AA requires its own massive amount of investment to actually keep it going, otherwise whoops, you're out of mana in a flash. If it didn't have the "costs you a zillion mana if you move a single step" property, you'd have a leg to stand on.

Lightning warp, no zillion mana cost.

The more you post, the more oblivious you seem to be of proper use of mechanics and skills.

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Apos91 написал:

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IlyaK1986 написал:

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Apos91 написал:

Split and tornado shot are the 2 skills that the majority of archer builds will use to clear maps and puncture only needs 1 good shot and the bleed takes care of the rest without being reflected.

So, in that regard, it is quite easy for most archer builds to take care of reflect with AA.

Obviously, the keyword is "most", I have no doubt that some archer builds might run into problems one way or another, similarly to how some caster builds have easier time dealing with it as well. (mostly fire builds, once again due to AA.)

Although that's technicalities and I don't want to get on them when we're of the same argumentation. My argument was against the guy saying that archer builds have trouble dealing with reflect, when in reality most of them don't. I assume he is obsessed with acro and phase acros and never bothered trying AA.

AA requires its own massive amount of investment to actually keep it going, otherwise whoops, you're out of mana in a flash. If it didn't have the "costs you a zillion mana if you move a single step" property, you'd have a leg to stand on.

Lightning warp, no zillion mana cost.

The more you post, the more oblivious you seem to be of proper use of mechanics and skills.

Which is why not a single split/tornado + puncture build ever uses those skills. Your theorycraft is refuted in full by all empirical evidence.

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Kagari написал:

The more i play, the more issues i have with reflect. Every major patch make our chars more and more powerfull, while defenses start to not get in line with our damage output.

I mostly play elemental builds so i can't count on cwdt + ic combo. ele damage we receive is totally retarded in the game as a whole, and it includes reflect. We don't have the choice but the be at 75% resist on all 3 types, but it feels so useless sometimes.

+max resists got destroyed recently, combined to a real lack of HP nodes on the top right side of the tree. My DPS is not overkill at all, but when i hit a pack with lvl 20 purity of my element + flask and die instantly, i don't see what i can do more.
15% reflect as an aura is most of the time manageable, as we can hit some non reflect mobs on the side to heal, but 18% reflects maps are just not possible for me right now.

Life leech is reserved to physical attacks mostly. The leech gem + vaal pact combo is stupid because it feels mandatory and boring. Spells don't have LoH unless we have Cybil, which is not that impressive without incinerate anyway.

We had several solutions with some friends :

-Straight out nerf reflect value, which is not a really elegant solution.

-Make the reflect act as life leech : damage reflected could cap at a % of our HP pool/sec.

-Give us the possibility to overleech : afaik right now if we hit a 100 HP mob with a 1K hit, we got 15%(or 18% for map mod) reflected back while we can only leech for the value of the mob HP (100 in that case). It wouldn't save us for one shots unless we run VP, but could help.

-Just remove this lazy boring mechanics that bring nothing but cheap difficulty, but that s always a debatable thought.

Making it life leech sounds pretty good idea, overall +1 to your post.