With new flask changes; Surgeon's mod should be removed

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goetzjam написал:

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a) ggg own reasoning behind legacy items is 'technical difficulties' due to mods being 'base' + 'value' and value being stored 'on item'. some mods have no values and can be changed globally. their 'legacy' strategy had nothing to do (at least officially) with nerfing/buffing. it went legacy regardless.

No, the reason for legacy items were to not change the value of peoples items that had PREVIOUSLY LOOTED. Imagine if every item from now on automatically got updated to the new values after GGG has spent 1.5 years specifically creating legacy items to NOT upset the players that had looted an item. This is a freaking ARPG where loot is one of the core reasons people play this game, you mess with peoples ALREADY FOUND LOOT and you piss people off. Long ago GGG decided they were going to balance for the temporary leagues, NOT regular standard\hc, this change would be the largest change GGG can do and personally not creating a legacy mod of they so deem its necessary to remove it would be a mistake.

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b) you imply that 'legacy' items == non-nerf. but buffing without legacy'ing an item is ok. it is a hypocrisy.

What items have been buffed that don't require a divine to reroll to the new properties, we aren't talking about freaking making someones previously looted item better (that still cost a divine now) we are talking about changing and in this case REMOVING a mechanic that players have gotten use to.

you mix what you 'think' with 'facts'

ggg repeatedly stated the technical reason - thats the fact.

they repeatedly buffed items without creating legacies - bows base damages, 2h base damages - where there was a technical possibility. they couldnt do the same with implicits', but they could - and changed - base flat damage on bows and 2h items. no legacies.

they also changed flasks (nerfed them) - granites 10k)closed beta)/4k/3k. again - no legacies. because they could have done it. no fcks given.

they also changed probably the most expensive item in the game - acuity - because there was a technical ability to do so. and many many people invested lots of real dulurs into these. ggg didnt give a f.. about that.

if you need something that had been changed - some MECHANIC as you say - CWDT level restriction was a MASSIVE mechanic change that affected pretty much everyone and created serious outrage (and expenditure on the players). ggg could have done it and done it. no fcks given. (but youll claim it is not an item.. yeah)

so keep to your nice theories if it makes you happy but there is no 'design to not upset' you talk about - there is a balancing and if something needs to go, then it goes. it happened many times in the past and while people like you cried a river - ggg didnt care

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they also changed flasks (nerfed them) - granites 10k)closed beta)/4k/3k. again - no legacies. because they could have done it. no fcks given.

No fucks given because of closed beta, let me say that again, CLOSED BETA, no one got anything from closed beta so it didn't matter. A game is expected to have huge changes in CLOSED BETA, not 2 years after release.

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they also changed probably the most expensive item in the game - acuity - because there was a technical ability to do so. and many many people invested lots of real dulurs into these. ggg didnt give a f.. about that.

They changed it because it wasn't working as they intended it to, it was better then a keystone in every single way. Its still BiS for crit builds and still the most desired item (more then likely) I am not opposed to changing surgeons flask in some way to make it more balanced, however I am opposed to REMOVING IT COMPLETELY.

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if you need something that had been changed - some MECHANIC as you say - CWDT level restriction was a MASSIVE mechanic change that affected pretty much everyone and created serious outrage (and expenditure on the players). ggg could have done it and done it. no fcks given. (but youll claim it is not an item.. yeah)

That is a skill gem, again you guys keep bringing up item and skill gems and trying to compare it to a previously rolled mod on items. ITS NOT THE SAME THING. People understand that gems and items change (as GGG has shown) however removing a mod completely from the game isn't something they have alluded to doing before with their previous actions.

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so keep to your nice theories if it makes you happy but there is no 'design to not upset' you talk about - there is a balancing and if something needs to go, then it goes. it happened many times in the past and while people like you cried a river - ggg didnt care

Please tell me what mod has been removed from previously rolled items (ideally after beta ended), if you can answer that question then your point might have ground to stand on, until then it doesn't.

If GGG wants to remove it for balance reasons then they should only do so going forward, not change on existing items.

granite 4k-3k happened not in closed beta

bow and 2h change happened not in closed beta

you are stubborn and all you say is 'whaaawhaawhaaa i do not want to loose my permaflasks'

wont help. people used the same 'strategy' of defying facts and common sense with aura changes, curse changes, acuity changes, summoner changes and many many more changes

ggg can change surgeons - technical ability is there. if they decide to change it, be sure that there wont be any legacies. like it or not.

to rub more salt into your wound - they wont remove the affix. theyll change it - most probably to 'PCoC version' that nicely fixes all the issue people have with it current implementation. so worry not - affix is not going away. stupid mechanic - does.

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granite 4k-3k happened not in closed beta

This was in open beta, again still in beta. This change also came with a reduction in monster damages as well. Of course leaving out important facts to try and show your case is desperate it might work on a few people.

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bow and 2h change happened not in closed beta

Let me guess open beta again, this was a buff not a removal of a mod, you just don't get my point do you.

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you are stubborn and all you say is 'whaaawhaawhaaa i do not want to loose my permaflasks'

Not a single character I have right now uses crit flask mechanics.

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wont help. people used the same 'strategy' of defying facts and common sense with aura changes, curse changes, acuity changes, summoner changes and many many more changes

Except that person wasn't me and that wasn't and isn't the same issue here. Once you understand that you can see where I am coming from. Snap shotting was an abuse of lazy coding, that got fixed because it was just poorly designed, they removed perma curse instead of finding a way to fix it, what aura changes are you referring too, the flat>percentage or the anger\wrath\effectiveness nerf, either way these are skill gems\tree balances, which we all very well know they do it.

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ggg can change surgeons - technical ability is there. if they decide to change it, be sure that there wont be any legacies. like it or not.

Now your just being salty ^_^ Again this doesn't affect any of my current characters at all. This affects the way I view the game going forward that is for sure.

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to rub more salt into your wound - they wont remove the affix. theyll change it - most probably to 'PCoC version' that nicely fixes all the issue people have with it current implementation. so worry not - affix is not going away. stupid mechanic - does.

Yes rub in a statement you don't know will happen. If they have an elegant solution to making the flask still very much useful but not as ab-usable I have no problem with them adjusting the existing flask, but removing a mod completely I do.

If you think perma flask are an issue I suspect your also fine with removing immortal call as well? Same principle if not worst when it comes to immunity.

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sidtherat написал:

common sense

Is severely lacking from this thread.

Please reread OP and reevaluate why you are in this thread.

/circle jerk

seeing a nerf thread and who do i find posting continously in it like in every other nerf thread?

our hero sidtherat

On Topic: i dont mind a 'lil nerf' if at all to surgeons but removing the mod only because for reasons of uber abuse is just silly its a sidequest that should not have too big of a nerf impact on the rest of the game.

On a sidenote id like to see divination destillate rarity bonus work for the full duration and not just until life or mana is full.

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zzang написал:

On a sidenote id like to see divination destillate rarity bonus work for the full duration and not just until life or mana is full.

Oh boy. A few weeks of that would really .... highlight some things XD

I definitely interpret the introduction of the new flasks as the death of surgeons. otherwise I simply wont understand GGG.

its already sad how homogenous and uninteresting status ailments, particularly shock, became. now its more trivial than ever to avoid shock from dom/piety/shocked ground/any instance of vaal

Still have yet to see a convincing argument for why Surgeons needs to go. At most it needs minor tweaks, but I think that may even be too much of a knee-jerk thing to do. +1 to GGG if they just leave it alone.

This is just one of those changes that would hurt poor to medium skilled players, and not have a huge effect on the good-best players.


If they change it, that is fine. Players adjust, it is just that the lesser skilled players are the ones who will end up getting hurt the worst.

I am also thinking that some of these changes, like the changes to the flasks may be in preparation for some larger changes coming with the act four patch. Perhaps they will make more sense to people then. Not confirmed by any means, but a possibility.