With new flask changes; Surgeon's mod should be removed

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goetzjam написал:

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blah what?

they did that exact same thing 3 days ago adding 'immunity' to 'removes xyz status' flasks

i havent heard anyone hearing trumpets of Jericho or other signs of abnormal catastrophes.

oh, you mean a change that is not a buff would create a nerdrage? maybe. but i remember and remember it clearly that exact same sentiments were used to defend utter sh.. state of snapshot. and ggg ignored these cries and went ahead with changes that werent popular.

surgeons is probably the next to receive a swift cut. there are going to be casualties. few stubborn players that played the same build for 5 months using the same gear and setup might feel enraged. but.. general game' health requires cutting stuff that sticks out

Adding something new is not the same as removing something old.

You mention general health which is why I specifically asked is this going to be a legacy mod or not. Removing something like this WILL affect longer term players that only play in standard and its already been established that GGG creates LEGACY ITEMS when balancing the game.

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AlbinosaurusRex написал:

As I read this thread, I'm less and less convinced that Surgeon's is a problem or needs any tweaking at all. Just leave it alone. If non-crit builds are underperforming, that is a problem with non-crit builds. Find other ways to buff them. Leave crit builds alone, they are in a pretty good place atm.

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sidtherat написал:

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AlbinosaurusRex написал:

As I read this thread, I'm less and less convinced that Surgeon's is a problem or needs any tweaking at all. Just leave it alone. If non-crit builds are underperforming, that is a problem with non-crit builds. Find other ways to buff them. Leave crit builds alone, they are in a pretty good place atm.

you are an alt account of what other player? no characters to the name.. using second/thrid account to 'support' oneself in the discussion is a bit..

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AlbinosaurusRex написал:

As I read this thread, I'm less and less convinced that Surgeon's is a problem or needs any tweaking at all. Just leave it alone. If non-crit builds are underperforming, that is a problem with non-crit builds. Find other ways to buff them. Leave crit builds alone, they are in a pretty good place atm.

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"poe is a game about trying to get around the rules rather than playing with them".

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Tanakeah написал:

At this point, it begs the question of whether you, Ashen, really are wanting to understand or even think beyond your own views and scenarios. I read your post, but let me first go down to your 'concerns list' and let me ask some questions for clarification purposes:

Removing surgeons will not curtail the "abuse" cases.
The removal of surgeons will have unforeseen, unintended, and damaging consequences outside of the targeted area.
This unleashes a domino-effect of future decisions by GGG as they continue to juggle cascading balance concerns.
Health of the game indeed.

1. What abuse cases are you speaking of if Surgeon's is removed? Are you speaking of combining things like Poacher's/Warlord's Mark + Perpetual + Magnate, or what exactly are you going to call 'abuse' if the Surgeon's mod is removed?

2. What unforseen/unintended consequences are you speaking of here? Can you give me and others some examples of what you think will happen if hypothetically Surgeon's is removed?

3. You seem to be heading down a slippery slope here, and you're saying that if Surgeon's is removed, then GGG is going to all of the sudden start looking for everything you'd seem 'similar' and go on a nerfing spree? If Surgeon's is indeed a serious problem (and I believe it is and needs to be dealt with in some fashion) then that is something that can be dealt with on its own and should be, and will not cascade into anything else. But if you believe so, can you please provide a more concrete example of what you're saying here?

4. If something is an issue and can/already is affecting the health of the game then it should be dealt with. You're saying that if Surgeon's mod is removed it will negatively affect the health of the game...all right...how so? Because of point 3, or something else that's a little bit less slippery slope territory?

Now, before I address the rest of your post, let me point out my view on flasks and how I see GGG had designed them and their intended use. This is, of course, my opinion so I speak for only myself here.

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Flasks were given charges and charge usage so that the player would see and understand that he/she doesn't have to lug around a whole inventory of health/mana pots, and no cooldown timers on them had to be introduced. AT THE SAME TIME, the flask charge system was designed to also tell the player that he/she has a limited amount of uses of them at any one time, which was very much likely to teach them strategic flask usage. Killing enemies to gain flask charges allowed the player to refill their flasks at a slow, but steady rate and smart players would learn how to juggle flask charge usage and killing monsters to get those charges back. All of this assumes that the player has to kill monsters.

This meant that in fights where there was very few targets available that players would be restricted on how many times they would be able to use a flask in a fight, or in a particular phase of a fight. If the player ran out of flask charges then they either had to hopefully get to a phase where monsters spawned so they could hopefully kill enough to refill their flasks a bit, or to make the decision to portal out and head back to town to get a full recharge. That of course carried its own risks, but was still an option, and still flask charges were primarily based on kills. Surgeon's wasn't so bad before as I previously stated, but now it's become a problem, even more so with flask enhancements that were indeed needed, and now things are further out-of-whack and needing to be looked at.

The point I am making here is that flasks were meant to be a strategic asset that the player would have to monitor and weigh and judge usage depending on the situation. Fighting a double Temple Piety with faster boss attack speed and damage? Double up on the lightning flasks, but knowing that you only have so many uses of them, even more so if you may have enough damage and gear to mathematically do the fight. You can beat it, but you still have a good chance of dying if you aren't careful and run out of flask charges...people do attempt boss fights like this and work within the limitations of their flasks that they use as those extra damage buffers/shields against heavy boss damage like Piety's Storm Herald attack, or Ball Lightning skills. The same could be said about other boss fights where you need to read the boss attacks, act accordingly, and flask accordingly to ensure your survive, but in the way flasks seemed to be designed, you as the player have to keep on your toes.

Now, to some of the things in your post. Yes, flask are required for many fights, especially in high-end maps, if for anything as a buffer with desync. Bosses like Shrine Piety, Palace Dominus, Courtyard Trio, and Crematorium firestormer put out TREMENDOUS elemental damage, and that's even before we start talking about map damage modifiers. Seventy-five max resists do not cut it against them, and not everyone has gear that gives them very high damage to where they can burst bosses down before they do anything threatening. And heaven forbid you desync in the Crematorium boss fight because that firestorm WILL stun you multiple times if you're not careful and you'll die as the boss stacks it on you. Again, I can give more examples, but your statement about resist flasks not being needed in boss fights would only hold true if the player had complete control and desync was a non-issue. But that's just part of it, and not all of it.

The biggest contention is once again something you seem to underplay from the Surgeon side and overplay from your side of talking about things like flask node investment + Poacher's Mark/Warlord's Mark + Belt. Your combo works ONLY when you have monsters to kill...no monsters, no permanent/semi-permanent flask uptime. Surgeon's doesn't care as I and others have said. When you go with a crit build, you need no investment into a belt or any of the other stuff. You run Assassin's Mark, which boosts your damage and CHC, you can run something like Headhunter/Doryani's for even more damage increases, or to get a little elemental leech, and you don't need to invest any passive points into flask nodes at all. You save points for other things like damage, defense, or other utility nodes that you wouldn't get by having to go a non-Surgeon's flask route. Put into that light...your combo and point isn't as grand as you make it to be and just shows another reason as to why Surgeon's is the superior choice.

The other problem is that with Surgeon's allowing you to pretty much 'perma-flask' you completely remove the whole strategic value of why flasks have charges in the first place. All of the sudden you don't need to worry about if you're going to have enough flask charges for a particular fight, you don't have to double up on fire flasks for Crematorium, lightning for Shrine, etc, etc, you can run other flasks that a non-Surgeon's flask user would potentially have to sacrifice. And again, the most important thing, you don't care about whether or not there are no monster spawns in the fight, or have to run around and wait for spawns. Every time your crit (even more prominent with 'shotgunning attacks' like Tornado Shot + GMP) you are guaranteed a flask charge, and thus you don't care about having to pace yourself as much.

Combine all of that with the inclusion of the status ailment immunities and it's very clear that Surgeon's is a problem that needs to be dealt with. It was an issue before, and it's even worse now and I don't think I need to explain again why that is. As far as flasks like Taste of Hate and Atizir's Promise and Rumi's are concerned, those are indeed powerful and why they can only gain charges in the normal way, which is fine. They are meant to be used depending on the situation either for burst damage, extra healing, or damage reduction, and you can only use them so many times before you can no longer benefit from them unless you get enough kills or port back to town. That's a good, intended way of giving flasks strategic use...Surgeon's eliminates that, is too potent, and needs adjusting.

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AlbinosaurusRex написал:

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"poe is a game about trying to get around the rules rather than playing with them".

You say it likes it's a bad thing. Those exceptions make the game a lot more interesting, even if it does mean some balancing quirks, but I just can't agree that means Surgeon's is "OP" or needs nerfs/removal/changing etc. Seems a little more than hyperbolic in my view.

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a) ggg own reasoning behind legacy items is 'technical difficulties' due to mods being 'base' + 'value' and value being stored 'on item'. some mods have no values and can be changed globally. their 'legacy' strategy had nothing to do (at least officially) with nerfing/buffing. it went legacy regardless.

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b) you imply that 'legacy' items == non-nerf. but buffing without legacy'ing an item is ok. it is a hypocrisy.

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so i do not think your concerns are valid.

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it can be done from the technical point of view

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so there is no reason to 'go legacy'

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. after the patch people will still have their surgeon flasks - but with slightly/significantly different mechanic.

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will some nerdcry? sure. will ggg care? not likely.

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snapshot 'ruined' many many more.

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same with gem nerfs - possible from technical standpoint. done repeatedly. both nerfs and buffs. no legacies.