[Balance] Unconditional/Permanent Fortify and why i think it is bad for the game in the long run

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Astarte911 написал:

All Ascendancy classes removed gem pressure.

So, i personally dont see a problem with this.

From an approximate point of view this makes sense but original poster has some good points about how Champion ascendancy goes above and beyond the support gem:

1. Can be used by non-melee
2. No hit required
3. 20% (?) stronger

I've heard the 2nd point is a big issue in HC where you cannot afford to be jumped at by a monster from the shadows before you have a chance to activate Fortify manually, making permafortify much stronger from a decision making perspective

Otherwise I personally agree with you; Fortify ascendancy is powerful but so are a lot of the other ascendancy options.

Exactly with that you would reduce the amount of builds that could use it -> kills diversity.

Inevitable Judgement only should work for Spells ?
Chain should only work for Attacks ?
Zerker's more Damage should only for Melee ?

All other gems are also unconditional, why you want Forty to be it ?

Hey, sorry, but you put your forty in your movement and in your mainlink and if you still dont have permanent forty, you are just bad :P

E1: Some of those Ascendancy nodes are also slightly stronger then the gem variant (Especially the chain +1 is fucking nuts)

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Astarte911 написал:

Exactly with that you would reduce the amount of builds that could use it -> kills diversity.

Inevitable Judgement only should work for Spells ?
Chain should only work for Attacks ?
Zerker's more Damage should only for Melee ?

All other gems are also unconditional, why you want Forty to be it ?

Melee splash should work for arrows and spells too? Inevitable judgement should be all hits, not just crits? Chain should work for melee hits somehow? Of course not.

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dudiobugtron написал:

hain should work for melee hits somehow? Of course not.

some melee skills already have "a builtin chain", earthquake for example. there could be more.

About what do you guys really complain here ?

About 30% of players in HC using Champion ? If they remove Forty, players go to Gladi. If they remove Gladi, players will go to Occultist (Mistress of Sacri with Cwdt-desecrate-Bone offering-inc dura and 60% Rathpith).

You guys behaving like Forty is the only defence you need. Its only 1 layer. It equals 27% more life (and it doesnt works against dots). Thats in total (with an average tree of 180% and a base HP of 2k) 60% or 12-15 passives.

Wanna really discuss, how much deadly infusion with 6 powercharges is worth in passive points ?

3% base with 700-800 inc crit chance is 24-27% additional cc.

at a base of 5% thats a total of 500% inc crit chance worth
at a base of 8% thats a total of 250% inc crit chance worth

average crit chance in passive is 25%. Thats a value of 20 passive points, respectivly 10 passive points.

And i didnt even talked about the additional crit multi, p charge generation it provides,

Do i really need to say more ?...


E: Corrected some values

It also makes a statement about how little it matters if non-melee can access the buff. Should that be true, what the fuck was the point of it in the first place?!

Well i think every class should get some balance.

I will say first that i dont like at all this addition of ascendancy classes, i think that they destroy the initial purpose of the game, which was: "you can do every build with every class, because we have planned a tree that lets you do it". Though, of course, this is still true in abstract, in the real life it is not anymore: because of some particular bonuses from some specific ascendancy, you will be forced to do your build with a specific class. And that is not good.

But this is not really on topic. We are talking about balance, so i want to say this about this discussion.

You can surely rebalance some useless ascendancy (there are some weaker ascendancy, i think this is sure and i dont have to tell which of them are), buffing the weaker classes and nerfing some notable which is too strong. But that's not enough.

I think the most important thing to do is to increase a lot the ascendancy class passives, and of course the number of ascendancy points you can get. Why that? There are some ascendancy class which have absolutely no defensive mechanism, and this is absolutely unfair compared to other classes. Sure, someone can choose to invest all points in damage, but this should be a player decision (like it is in the normal passive tree).
6 points (usually a path of 4 nodes, and other 2 nodes) doesnt give you much choices, and so you will be forced to build around a specific notable of a specific ascendancy: which could be good sometimes, but usually means there's no balance at all in the various ascendancy.
Rarely you build a character around a single notable: you build around some notable and a couple of keystone too.
Increasing points means you need more runs on the lab (maybe every run at merciless can be done with higher difficulty, in order to turn this part of the game somewhat "challenging": actually it is not). And adding nodes to every single ascendancy will let every build benefit something from the highest part of the nodes (equally in defence or offence, the player will decide to go for balance or not), so you will not be forced to go for a specific ascendancy because "of that fucking good node", because you will have the choice to invest more point on defense or offense on ascendancy, depending on your normal passive points and the equipment.

Still, what im saying its not the opposite of ascendancy tree being too big, like : we are talking about like 10 points to invest in 30 nodes maybe?". Nothing compared to 120 points on a 1500 or more tree.

Of course this would mean to rebalance everything. But i think this should be done even if GGG doesnt think about ascendancy like i do.

I can't decide. Permafortify it's good but that's it. Every other ascension on the other hand makes champion feel literally pitiful dps wise if you think about it.

I don't understand how Perma-Fortify is a problem at all.

The problem is, this is Path Of One-shots.

Even with:
10k Hp
90% Physical Reduction
80-85% Elemental Reduction
27% All Damage Reduction from Fortify

You can and will still occasionally be instantly killed.

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Frattagli4 написал:

I can't decide. Permafortify it's good but that's it. Every other ascension on the other hand makes champion feel literally pitiful dps wise if you think about it.

Honestly this is what im thinking about.
And champion has no notables that boosts damage.

This is totally bad. The best thing of this game is the vastity of choices. But ascendancy classes and their passive nodes doesnt give you much choice.

I think this is the main core of the problem. Very few choices for every classes, and especially the most important choice in the game: whether to focus on damage or defence.

I would have simply granted 6 additional passive points to be used in the normal tree, instead of adding classes for each classes.