[Balance] Unconditional/Permanent Fortify and why i think it is bad for the game in the long run

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Frattagli4 написал:

To be honest champion was even very hyped, so no wonder there are a lot of them. But if you want to oneshot stuff, well, champion is not really the way to go.

I agree with the 1 shot thing, but in terms of it being very hyped, it wasn't to anyone that I know, it wasnt on reddit, I dont think it was here.

The universal response prepatch was why do that when you can get fortify in other ways if you want it so bad.

One other reason Champion might be popular is the generic damage increase. Assuming not on low life you can get permanent 75% increased damage, which in worst case scenario is maybe 8% more damage, best case scenario more like 40% more damage (with no damage taken drawback!)

EDIT: Also, the 75% generic damage increase in this patch at least allows double dip abuse while staying reasonably close to projectile and chaos nodes. So for an OP poison build you can consider it "75% increased chaos hit damage, 75% increased poison damage" which is not too shabby at all.

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Thats not physical damage, thats not one hit. These calculations have been done multiple times before.

Is there a reason we're focusing on physical mitigation and physical one shots? Fortify 24% applies to all Hits, not just physical.

Or are you just saying that 24% hit reduction does nothing vs bearers?

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MortalKombat3 написал:

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goetzjam написал:

Pretty much agree 100% with @Astarte911

Look in SC where people don't care about deaths as much, they aren't selecting champion nearly as much as HC players. Its no surprise that people want to benefit from the unconditional fortify. You get the option to lose out on all of the ranger benefits if you want to use it, to me this is a fair tradeoff.

But even in SC, Champion is the second most popular sub-class. And first is Ascendant, the ONLY Scion subclass, that has THREE times more diversity than any other (if not more)! Champion is clearly overpowered, because in SC, players usually dont give a shit about defence, and Champion is defensive subclass.

Or you presume SC players are picking Champion just for his cool icon?

Can't blame them, his icon is really cool :<

If I was GGG, I would have taken the entire Raider class theme, hit Ctrl+X, go over to Slayer, hit Ctrl+V, and change one of Slayer's "recently Killed" effects to gaining Fortify. Champion wouldn't have Fortify at all (probably Overwhelm instead), and Raider would be designed around having REALLY high Attack Speed rather than on-Kill effects (maybe "modifiers to your global Attack Speed also apply to Burning Damage").

Champion fortify is fine.

It's only available to one ascendancy class, and of course a defensive buff in HC is popular.

The bigger issue is that so many other ascendancy class alternatives are "on kill" which is basically "shit on bosses".

I wouldn't TOUCH fortify until you fix all the on kill effects to be on hit effects, and then see how you are doing.

Right now the choice is basically "awesome full time defense" vs "awesome offense that can't be relied upon to be up when i need it most".

That's not really a fair comparison.

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This is not enterily correct.

Most of the bosses are designed, that they
a) 1 shot you if you dont move
b) 2 shot you if you dont move

Even with fortify, you cannot facetank the touch of god, stay in Mageara's firestorm, facetank all 3 Excavation bosses or kill the Village Ruin boss without splitting them up. So Forty really doesnt delivers the edge here that you eventually need to facetank them.

Same for on kill effect. They dont work there as well.

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Astarte911 написал:

^
This is not enterily correct.

Most of the bosses are designed, that they
a) 1 shot you if you dont move
b) 2 shot you if you dont move

Even with fortify, you cannot facetank the touch of god, stay in Mageara's firestorm, facetank all 3 Excavation bosses or kill the Village Ruin boss without splitting them up. So Forty really doesnt delivers the edge here that you eventually need to facetank them.

Same for on kill effect. They dont work there as well.

To be fair I didn't claim it let you facetank every mechanic, but not every boss encounter is like this. The game isn't just village ruin and uber aztiri, but they shouldn't be ignored either.

Too much stuff in path gets nerfed because of specific use cases being made into killer youtube videos with near-perfect gear.

Still, I have basically the same char in both standard HC and PHC - one running champion + bleed and the other running gladiator for spell block + aura nodes. I'm not even sure which one is better currently. They're definitely close.

The only thing I think that really makes gladiators spell block not the clear winner is that there are very few mobs who threaten a tanky toon with both melee and spells at the same time.

edit: but if the next challenge league adds some boss who does do both at once, gladiator will become popular and you can bet 100 people will post nerf threads about it

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Tin_Foil_Hat написал:

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Serge91 написал:

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Tin_Foil_Hat написал:

No. Nothing in the game is capable of doing 10k pure physical damage outside of like a Vaal Smash with crit mods.

With that amount of physical reduction and mitigation you can survive up to two 10k hits before being killed with only 7k HP.

Some lag when you kill a big pack of stormbearers and you cant leave the area in time. Maybe the map has even -res or reduced recovery.

Bro, Stormbears = Frost bombs = elemental damage. What part of anything you just said has to do with physical damage and physical mitigations/reductions ? Literally nothing.

Thats not physical damage, thats not one hit. These calculations have been done multiple times before.

In fact im not talking about "physical damage". You replied a post where phys damage wasnt the core of the point:

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Snowflake85 написал:

I don't understand how Perma-Fortify is a problem at all.

The problem is, this is Path Of One-shots.

Even with:
10k Hp
90% Physical Reduction
80-85% Elemental Reduction
27% All Damage Reduction from Fortify

You can and will still occasionally be instantly killed.

He was talking about every type of damage, alone and combined togheter.
You took in the phys damage, why?
Are you impling that you can't be instakilled with those stat? Im telling you that he is right: it can happen with some specific situations, even with those stat especially if you don't have block/spell block (and, with those defensive stat it is probably that you wont have a good block/spell block).
You can die from a volatile flameblood with very high life (from map mod and rare mod) with extra damage, even with 10k hp, high res and fortify, if there are some bad map mods. You can die to detonate dead corpses from boxes. You can die from a lot of things.
Fortify helps with elemental damage, but this doesnt make you immortal. Not even with 10k hp and high res. And, as long as this is true, then perma(stronger)fortify won't be "too OP".

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adghar написал:

Or are you just saying that 24% hit reduction does nothing vs bearers?

Surely it works even for storm/flame/ice bearers.