Boosting lich spawn rate is pointless.

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ScrappyJim написал:

There is no point in increasing the lich spawn rate. What's the point if you can't access the RNG they are locked behind to begin with? The problem isn't them spawning but the rate of Abyssal Depth spawns. If the bug prevents Depths from spawning then that is what should be addressed.

It goes like this.... Open map> Haku > Open Map > Trial > Open Map > Vagan > Open map > Trial > Open map > Tora > Open map > Trial > Open Map > Zana > Open Map 2 troves. Repeat. ZZZZZZZZ

In the rare chance you get an area without a sub areas there are just too many troves. It would be nice if we could disable masters.

They increased spawn rate of depths also, or fixed it if it was bugged. There spawn rate is pretty ok now.

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Necromancien написал:

Some Vagan, all Haku, trials, Elder and his guardians too.

I doubt the elder/guardian bit tho, because I distinctly remember doing guardian fight, returning back to map and instead of being at the portal, I was in the middle of the unexplored area of the map, cofused and only after that I found abyss and the crack lead me straight to the depths at the same point where I appeared.

They probably fucked something up in the meantime? maybe Abysses + depths should be generated before trials/masters or something?

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ScrappyJim написал:

Again you are putting words in my mouth. Nothing was said about the chance of depths being zero.

I'm sorry. That was not my intention. It's what I read into your "doubling 0:9 is still 0:9", which only makes sense if the probability were 0.

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ScrappyJim написал:

Increasing the the chance of lich spawns does not increase the quantity because there is no guarantee one will spawn.

This is wrong. There does not need to be a guarantee. If the chance of a lich spawning was 1 in 10 Depths before the patch (10%) you would've found find, on average, 10 Liches per 100 Depths (which means that over the total number of Depths played by all players over the whole time that Abyss content is active and the rate was 10%, the number would be 10% of all Depths - but probability being a tricky bitch this means nothing for the individual player... if you're unlucky you'll get a lot fewer, at least for some time).
With the chance raised by 125%, you'll now have 22,5 Liches per 100 Depths. Again, there is no guarantee that YOU as an individual will have those 22,5 Liches per 100 Depths and if you're really unlucky you could even have fewer Liches after the patch than before, at least for a time.

If it were true (i.e. increasing the lich chance woul dnot increase the quantity), this would also be true for increasing the quantity of Depths, because there is no guarantee, either. Even if they raised it to 100% and removed the bug (meaning you'd get a Depth on every map you play) the chance to encounter a Lich is still limited by the chance of a Lich spawning. It cannot exceed this chance. So if you have 1 Depth on every map and the chance for a Depth to have a Lich is 10% you'll find 1 Lich per 10 maps on average, with the possibility of RNG fucking you over and giving you a streak of lichless Depths. So your preferred way (sorry if that is again putting words into your mouth, but from all I read so far it seems like you think that increasing the number of Depths is the only way to increase lich encounters) is not better than increasing the number of Lich encounters.

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ScrappyJim написал:

Since I only played a few hours last night I ran 56 maps. Of those 56 38 could potentially spawn a depths but 6 had zero cracks. Out of those 38 I had 5 Depths and one lich spawn (wheres my double rate? it's the same as pre-patch).

That's a chance of 20% for a Lich to spawn in a Depth. Seems pretty solid compared to some of the chances you have in this game. But then, your sample size is too small to actually draw any conclusions.
I only played 8 maps, found 1 Depth, 1 of which contained a Lich.

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ScrappyJim написал:

I also had 33 troves in maps without depths. I pretty positive that if more depths spawned I would've at least found 1 depth with a Lich within those 33. If the rate was increased even 100% on depths don't you think there would've been at least one lich?

What I think is irrelevant. The answer is: Maybe you'd have had at least one Lich.

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ScrappyJim написал:

You're only going off theoretical numbers not counting on RNGs influence. After all RNG is RNG. yes only one Lich can spawn per map giving you only one chance per map for them but depths have multiple chances being one per crack. There'd be a better chance of receiving one depth per map or two than seeing a lich.

RNG is RNG, but if you reduce it to that, then the chance is always 50%: Either you find a Depth with a Lich or you don't. This is not very helpful. While increasing chances (for either Depths or Liches) does not guarantee a specific outcome, the average number of Liches will get higher.
And that was really all I wanted to get across: It's not pointless to boost the lich spawn rate, it will increase the number of Liches you encounter on average. You can achieve the same with increasing the number of Depths, of course. It doesn't matter. But it is harder to adjust the number of Depths, because as you point below, the die for rolling Depths is weighted.

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ScrappyJim написал:

Much like your dice comparison. Before you roll that dice you better program it to statistically roll everything but 3 far more often or use weighted dice.

My dice comparison was to show you that doubling a chance, even if it is not 50%, as you claimed

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ScrappyJim написал:

Doubling their spawn rate does not mean you will see twice as many lich unless their original rate is 50% (it's not).

will on average double the desired result (with the chance of any dice roll to throw a number being 1/6 or about 17%).
That has nothing to do with weighted dice. We can give that some relevance, of course:
The weighted die is the the one that rolls a Depths (3). Its chance to roll a three, however, is lower because it was poorly manufactured, say 1/20 instead of 1/6.
Then we have an unweighted die that we only roll if the weighted one rolled a three. If it rolls as 3 as well, we get a Lich in the Depth.

Now we increase the chance of a Depths by allowing another throw of the weighted die when you don't get the three. This would, on average, double the number of Depths you'd get. That means that of the 1 Depths in 2 maps (or whatever) on average you might get, some Depths you roll won't appear, because on average means that under unrestricted circumstances you would get some maps without Depths and some with 2 or 3 Depths. That is, however, not possible, so some of your favourable outcomes will be wasted. So while doubling the chance for a Depth to appear will increase number of Depths you encounter, it won't double it.*

Now we increase the chance of a Lich appearing in a Depth by allowing to roll the unweighted die a second time if it didn't roll the 3. This does double the the chance of getting a Lich, because the die is only rolled when the necessary prerequisite (a Depths) is already met. As a result, more Liches will be encountered.

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ScrappyJim написал:

If some maps can't spawn Depths it's better to give the ones that can spawn them a higher chance of it. Because that was the problem. Not Lich rate.

This is incorrect as I tried to show for several pages now. It is irrelevant whether you increase the chance of finding a Depth or the chance of finding a Lich in a Depths, as long as not one of them is 0.

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ScrappyJim написал:

Fill in the blank
The better the chance of finding a Depths then the better the chance of finding a ____.

Hoard. :D
Lich works as well, though.
I never questioned that, though. Again, what I questioned (or rather pointed out as incorrect) is that cf. thread title.

I might have been a bit harsh when I said that some people's math skills made me cringe; sorry about that. I should just have pointed out the flaw in a neutral way.

*I might actually be wrong about that (I wish Shags would clarify that one), but even then it doesn't change much, since my point was never that increasing the number of Depths would NOT increase the number of Liches you find.

On my last sprint to 40, after the patch, I have encountered just 1 abyssal depth---sans lich---in 130 maps. These were almost exclusively red maps with 80% of them had the +exiles Zana mod. The single abyssal depth occurred in a summit map with a bloodlines mod.

Before the patch, I had another streak of 80 maps, mostly fortune favors reds and high yellows, without a single abyssal depth.

I encountered several depths, and a couple liches, in atziri, after the patch.

Hopefully this helps the devs pin down what is wrong, because this streak of only troves is either extremely bad RNG or there may be more to the bug than just haku, trials and elder & friends.


To make this patch actually work, why not just turn off (EDT: non-Zana) masters in red maps?

EDT2: Something in one of the recent hot patches seems to have made difference. As I burn off my good red maps now, I've encountered depths in 1/3 or so of maps and have encountered two liches. And this is regardless of mod.

Liches?


O.o

OP is correct. I'm a solo player and looking at my "endgame grind" - challenge's lich count is pretty grim: 9 liches killed over the entire league. I've been active the entire league (minus xmas/new years) so I've definitely ran a four digit number of maps already. At a random average I'd say I've gotten one depths per 20 or 30 maps.

Mathematically it might be correct to say that more liches spawn, but when I already need to run dozens of maps to even get a single depths to appear, what does it matter if liches have increased spawn rate? Yeah, if the rate was multiplied, then it'd probably make a noticeable difference; however, knowing GGG, there's no way the 'buff' was that drastic.

I'd much rather take my chances with a 2% lich spawn rate and no masters/trials/whatever blocking depths from spawning rather than the current situation and a 20% lich spawn rate. The dice has never been my friend, and in the current situation I can't even 'brute force' my way through with a map spam. Thankfully the second or third lich I spawned was Ulaman, so I don't have to struggle with trying to complete that challenge as well.

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Mikrotherion написал:

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ScrappyJim написал:

Except the problem was never the Lich spawn rate. It was the reduced rate of Depths occurring caused by the number of map mods. The Lich that should have spawned weren't being allowed because of this. Think about the number of maps unaffected by these mods that could house a Depth and Lich but give 2-3 troves instead. There would be a greater chance off seeing a Lich if some of those troves were actually depths.

Even if they boosted it from 1% to 5% it'd be 1/200 or 10% to 1/100.

That's why I talked of a lack of math skills. While you are of course right that the reduced spawn rate of Depths IS a problem, increasing the rate of liches that spawn in the Depths that DO spawn can never be irrelevant.
If you look at the calculation you see that the Chance of finding a Lich is the product of Depths spawn rate and Lich spawn rate. There are two factors. Unless one is 0 (which it isn't, Depths and Liches do spawn), increasing one will affect the total chance to meet a Lich.
Since there's a bug that affects the spawn rate of Abyssal Cracks, the easier way is to increase Lich spawn rate.

Unless one is 0 you made the point. In late game it is 0. With Sextant Zana and farming Elder you have in every single Map a subarea. My last Depths were in my Atziri runs and thats it. didnt found a depths in weeks now.
But found enough at the start of my mapping so iam glad that i have all my liches.

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Ueblesding написал:

Unless one is 0 you made the point. In late game it is 0. With Sextant Zana and farming Elder you have in every single Map a subarea. My last Depths were in my Atziri runs and thats it. didnt found a depths in weeks now.
But found enough at the start of my mapping so iam glad that i have all my liches.

That's a problem of course; it is the core of the problem. GGG don't have a solution to it, though. However, if your chance to get a depths is 0 because of your playstyle (although I'm not really sure how Zana and Sextants come into it), then there's nothing that can be done for now.

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sithren написал:

i finally got uluman to spawn today. and i got the other guy to spawn twice. so i’m happy!

SOOOOO JELAOUS!

Can't get ulaman at all....