Bestiary is a complete waste of time

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Kiss_Me_Quick написал:

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Phrazz написал:

Jesus Christ - this attitude.

Objectively a waste of time? You could argue that playing the goddamn game is a waste of time. In my eyes, as long as you have fun, the game is absolutely not a waste of time. And fun is pretty much as far from "objectively" as we come.

And yes, I do realize that it's just an Emperors Luck x2, but it is an addition to the card that I've gotten 2-3 times while leveling through the maps. And I appreciate these additions. Makes leveling more fun and entertaining.

"Objectively a waste of time". Probably the stupidest sentence I've ever read in here. Tell me, what's not a waste of time in a video game? "Objectively"?

Yes, objectively a waste of time.

Every game has some sort of incentive to be played on. This game and it's content is all about progressing your character. Your "FUN" is locked behind content that needs progress. Your progress using Bestiary is close to non-existent compared to the rest of the game.
If you would get all your items instantly on hour 1, you wouldn't enjoy the game. If you would have Bestiary level of effort x reward progress throughout the whole game, you wouldn't enjoy the game.

This rhetoric of "das dae gaem doe am still haf fun" is flat out stupid. A game has to give you challenges and an incentive for it to be enjoyed. Bestiary provides no real incentive that is aligned with the game's challenges.

What you are describing is not "objectively", not at all.

Also, where do you read the official rules text that the only way this game is to be taken and played is by character progression? PoE is as sandboxy as ARPGs get. You can do a lot of different stuff for a lot of different reasons. I mean personally I am on your side, I also play the game like that. But the opinion of us 2 has nothing and I mean absolutely nothing to do with objectively. It is as subjective as it gets.

A game giving you a challenge to be enjoyed is another of your "objective" criteria? Again, as subjective as it gets. That is just your personal opinion. People play games to look at the pretty landscape, to experiment with crazy (often crazy bad) stuff to dip into their creativity, to socialize, etc. etc. etc. There is a thousand good reasons to play a game as long as you enjoy it. And everyone enjoys different things and that is: Subjective!

And last but not least no rule about a computer game is in any way objective. It cannot be, ever. Because it is a friggin computer game...

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Kiss_Me_Quick написал:

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Mr_Cee написал:

The longer the char progresses, the longer the fun for the player ;) (with 'diminishing returns' on acting 'very' slow, obviously. but even this can keep being interesting, like with farming for specific cards or other events instead of pushing through the storyline).

Nobody wants to gimp themselves into progressing slower, lets not kid ourselves. You MAY like leveling super slow and you MAY have fun in act 3 at level 40 but it still is objectively a waste of time compared to your available options.

You clearly need to look up the word objectively in the dicitionary. None of what you describe here has anything to do with the meaning of the word. Efficiency does not equal objectivity.

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Burgingham написал:

And last but not least no rule about a computer game is in any way objective. It cannot be, ever. Because it is a friggin computer game...

Why are you arguing about semantics when you're not aware of the definition?

objective
əbˈdʒɛktɪv/Submit
adjective
1.
(of a person or their judgement) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.

When it comes to Path of Exile's game philosophy and what the incentives are, then you're aiming to be as efficient as possible with your tools. Sure, you can subjectively think that some of the less efficient methods are fun, but it doesn't align with the notion that this game has set so far.

Killing monsters 30 levels lower is objectively a waste of time compared to what your other options are BUT you can subjectively still have fun in there! <- Fact
Doing bestiary is objectively a waste of time compared to mapping BUT you can subjectively still have fun in there! <- Fact
Picking up white 1 socket items is a waste of time compared to other drops BUT you can subjectively still have fun with it! <- Fact

Why is being efficient objective? There is just no link between the 2. It is just your personal opinion.

Killing monsters 30 levels below me is a waste of time if I try to get XP. But if I try to find out which monster has the most colourful explosion when I kill it, this might be superior to killing high level monsters as I get it done faster.

So the question that has to be answered is: What is the objective goal to this specific computer game? Once you ask yourself that question it will become very clear that there is no objective answer to this one. Ask a million different players and you will get a million different answers on why the play computer games. Maybe not a million...but you get my gyst ;)

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Burgingham написал:

Why is being efficient objective? There is just no link between the 2. It is just your personal opinion.

At this point you're even lying to yourself. It's not my personal opinion, it's

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Kiss_Me_Quick написал:

Path of Exile's game philosophy and what the incentives are. Sure, you can subjectively think that some of the less efficient methods are fun, but it doesn't align with the notion that this game has set so far.

Since you are mentioning fun all the time, fun is based on personal feelings and tastes, therefore you cannot mention here the word "objectively" because is no sense, what you mean is pretty much the opposite, subjectively.

I mean there is nothing bad, is your opinion, but you cant say it is objective to say "this league is bad because my tastes makes me think i dont enjoy it"

Some people enjoy different gameplay, some people like actual mechanics (i do) and none if this has nothing to do with being objective, is matter of tastes :p

In my case Bestiary is for me something extra that you can do or ignore it, for me it is a great feature, i love it, needs few tweaks (comming tomorrow afaik) about adding more beasts in maps but in general im really happy with GGG and the new league :)

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xSlaynx написал:

Since you are mentioning fun all the time, fun is based on personal feelings and tastes, therefore you cannot mention here the word "objectively" because is no sense, what you mean is pretty much the opposite, subjectively.

I mean there is nothing bad, is your opinion, but you cant say it is objective to say "this league is bad because my tastes makes me think i dont enjoy it"

Some people enjoy different gameplay, some people like actual mechanics (i do) and none if this has nothing to do with being objective, is matter of tastes :p

In my case Bestiary is for me something extra that you can do or ignore it, for me it is a great feature, i love it, needs few tweaks (comming tomorrow afaik) about adding more beasts in maps but in general im really happy with GGG and the new league :)

I haven't said anything about fun, this is what everyone else has claimed and protected. I take into consideration what the game philosophy is and not consider my own subjective fun. If the monsters get buffed and the whole process isn't so obnoxious and long then sure, it can be great! In it's current state, it doesn't fulfill the purpose of helping us progress our characters compared to other options.

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Kiss_Me_Quick написал:

I haven't said anything about fun

You should take better care on you words... from your third posting before that:

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Kiss_Me_Quick написал:

Sure, you can subjectively think that some of the less efficient methods are fun, but it doesn't align with the notion that this game has set so far.

And if you're NOT gaming for any kind of fun, then why do it at all? Then its really just a waste of time; YOUR time.

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Nobody wants to gimp themselves into progressing slower

Its in some cases no question of gimping, sometimes its just a matter of time. Like between acting ingame for 10 hours on one day or spread the same amount over a week. That is ALSO a kind of slower progressm, even at the same pace and efficiency. (nearly same, there are some inevitable losses as shorter your streaks are)
And on the other side: NOBODY (with a clear mind) 'wants' to suffer from the stress and hectic of gaming on the very most possible efficiency. I dont mind if a map consumes double or even triple time of what could be 'efficient'. But my main goal is just to have fun with playing around, not any other possible achievement. (while I still try to reach something 'in addition', like another achievement, (my possible) amount of challenges, a new xp landmark or some uniques for the collection... getting rich just for the sake of richness hasnt room therein)

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Kiss_Me_Quick написал:

Path of Exile's game philosophy and what the incentives are

The 'initial' philosophy of POE is to try to kill your chars ^^ (the basic idea behind ANY PvE game)
And on the other hand, it offers a LOT of different possibilities to act, and doesnt stop adding. As the main example, lets look at the typical trader here: even they seem to have their fun. And this doesnt even need to have ANY kind of storyline progress, just hanging around in town or hideout. How does this fit your theory?

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Phrazz написал:

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Slaanesh69 написал:

Nice conflation. Did I say that? No.

I am saying dramatic changes in philosophy/design premise are jarring. There is such a thing as a more managed, gentler turn rather than jamming it in reverse while you are still moving forward. You just leave your transmission behind that way.

I am the absolute worst at metaphors. No joke.

By the way, the speed meta has not changed. The rest of the game still benefits from it. GGG just released a core mechanic that was antithetical to recent design trends. Other design choices like increasing rare and unique mob damage and still not adding better loot to bosses fully supports previous design.

You act like they did remove all movement speed and movement skills. They added the opportunity to press 'v' on mobs. Most builds kill most these monsters (except the toughest red ones) in one or two shots, that's why you then can throw the net on them before even attacking.

I just don't get it. Seriously. OK, so you're off-screening a lot of them - not a big deal. We can't catch 'em all.

Seriously. You are pressing a button before killing an enemy. Just like we did with curses back in the days.

Just got a new recipe: A stack (10) of a random currency. Love it. Got 10 chaos. Still love it.

Edit; BTW, I love your metaphors!

Sorry, having a slow, minor conversation in the middle of the intense Kiss_Me_Quick debates.

You are right, I am being somewhat hyperbolic in my metaphors. In theory, this league is in complete opposition to the speed meta developed over several years - now it is: don't kill too fast, carefully target, time things right. However, as you say, the rest of the game remains the same, it is not like they eliminated all mods over 10% move speed, etc.

I still stand by the spirit of my point that introducing a mechanic that theoretically requires a complete change of gameplay style is an odd choice.

I will also concede that it has taken time to get used to the mechanic. I would conjecture that the "net and burn" meta this has become was NOT the original design, that you were meant to treat it like a Vorici mission. But with the power levels of even average builds, it is instead net-first-damage-later (aside from those regen reds).

Finally, I will additionally concede that the more I play, the less I dislike it. I won't say "the more I like it" but my dismay is gone.

The RNG in the blood altar is still ridiculous and makes this crafting mostly useless outside of very specific recipes. THIS is very much in tune with PoE's design philosophy!!!

You know, going against the meta actually creates a challenge, while going with the meta the league would have a hard time posing a challenge.