POE - The only ARPG with no loot: this needs to change

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torturo написал:

But, for me personally, there's a need of some improvements in the loot quality, altogether with a functional trading platform for those who actively trade.

Well said!

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torturo написал:

Three milestones make PoE the successful game it is:

- dedicated servers (always online)
- emphasis on economy (economy centered game, as advertised on steam btw)
- competitiveness

In short: this game can't even exist without economy. It can't be questioned.

Wut? Always online is an ultimate DRM and nothing more. The economy is a band-aid for non-existant loot. Competitiveness in a solo game? Not even funny. I'd totally prefer to play it without online, economy and competitiveness.

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Frostride написал:

I don't get this thread. In Flashback Incursion (Standard) I have 3 days played (72 hours), and about 12 exalts total worth of currency (nearly all of them spent on gear).

All I did was just explore maps on the atlas, level up and trade. I didn't farm anything in particular, I didn't even do the chaos recipe after the first 3 days of the league.

I.e. I decided on a build, it sucked, changed everything but the ascendancy class and I'm still "done" with the build in a week of playing time, while employed at full time.

What more exactly do you want of this? Just trade; if you don't like SSF because you can't trade, then don't play it?

If there is a player at level 100, in SSF in Hardcore, in the first week of a reset, what exactly is the problem with the game?

but that in itself can be part of the problem. There can be no loot because theres too much loot, stuff gets so saturated, so much stuff drops that the value in everything is lost. People stop picking up rares because so many drop and therefor the standard needed to be deemed valuable is so high that theyre picking up 100 items and theyre all 'trash'. GGG is then combating the fact that so much loot drops by adding more and more 'bad' mods and mod tiers to items in order to water them down because so many are dropping, which multiplies the problem.

They buffed most uniques, and theyre actually mostly rly good now, but so many drop that even ultra powerful uniques are worth 1 chaos each = they feel like theyre trash, not worth picking up.

You geared up really easy, sure, that happens when powerful items are dropping like candy everywhere. Flashback is not a good example because the loot situation is highly abnormal and the economy given its such a short league is a lot different. But in normal leagues you can spend 1 chaos on every gear slot and completely trash red tier maps, and you dont pick up any loot because at best its gonna be a 1 chaos piece of 'junk' like the stuff you are wearing.

I remember when a well rolled 6L rare was worth 20-30 exalts, you can get similar stuff now for about 60 chaos in a normal league thanks to div cards. Thats not good, the value in items has got so fucked that people feel like theres no real point looting items, people are switching to self found at alarming rates or abandoning pikcing up regular items for dedicated div card/currency farming and restricted boss loot drop racing, early bird shaper uniques, uber uniques, chayula, anything they can get market control of because its a restricted drop and hence actually has some value if you are the first person in the league to farm the items.

After 2 weeks the sc economies are fucked, completely fucked.


Remember when a rats nest would net you 4 exalts? When finding a mjolner was 30ex in your pocket? When a binos was an easy 4ex? Everythings worth 1 alch now, nothing is exciting, if Im 2 weeks into a league and I throw a t12 map in the device, what am I hoping to find? nothing, I have no hope that anything worth a damn is gonna drop, theres nothing to loot or give a crap about.

Worthless loot is a byproduct of disposable content. Unluckily, disposable content is a major part of ggg's business strategy for long. It pays bills.

I'd also like to see improvements in loot department in terms of quality (less drops but better), altogether with rarity of uniques (less frequent, more chase items).
Oh, also bring the league based uniques back (HC/SC).

Unlikely. The model of development and balancing by disposable content defies all of these.
So, whatever works.

saying poe has no loot is dishonest. poe's item design, especially unique design, is probably the one thing that sets it apart from any other arpg that exists.

an item's "worth" is always relative.
in a trade league its worth is what its worth to others on open market
in a ssf league the worth is what its worth to your build youre making (or planning to make)

it's always funny to see people who refused to play poe when drops were scarce ("I dont want to waste 21312312 hours to play for a chance to drop shavs"), when all those items became accessible now through GGG catering to casuals and upping drops, it's ("I dont want to pick up a shavs because its worthless") to them. absolutely hilarious, it's like they dont understand the very basics of economy

the fact that item's power in game dont correlate to their rarity but rather the supply, is an axiom in an open market world. you remember that show 'Alf' ? he was an alien from a place foam was incredibly precious, and gold was incredibly cheap, all because of supply/demand

the real issue is that its always better to farm currency and then buy what you need because of item inflation.

'old' poe made it difficult to speed farm currency due to plethora of limitations, desync and loot unfilter-ability being some of those, and old poe had scarce drops. this, along with game's lower playerbase, and lack of near insta-buy place like poe.trade (remember, we traded on forums) kept the price some of the items (whose power was better correlated to rarity back then) worth a lot on market. I remember selling an unlinked shavs for 60 exalts in forums. and it sold. fast.

new poe has none of these restrictions. new poe is built for speed farming. and for speed farming, uniform thing like currency that is predictable and STABLE, is far more efficient than picking up and iding rares or some fringe uniques. and most uniques have high drop rates and theres ton of supply but not a lot of demand.

add in the fact that poe has no real item progression past like level 80 (changing a bit, but still not really- 80 is still early), the 'most efficient' way to progress in a trade league is just farm currency and level fast- then buy everything you want at 80, including skill gems- thats it.

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grepman написал:

the real issue is that its always better to farm currency and then buy what you need because of item inflation.

It's not item inflation. It's the fact that you can't rely on drops. You can play hundreds of hours and loot nothing but trash. Currency is reliable. Sure, you probably will miss some good rares if you use strict filters. But it saves you time to farm enough currency to just buy what you need.

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grepman написал:

it's always funny to see people who refused to play poe when drops were scarce ("I dont want to waste 21312312 hours to play for a chance to drop shavs"), when all those items became accessible now through GGG catering to casuals and upping drops, it's ("I dont want to pick up a shavs because its worthless") to them. absolutely hilarious, it's like they dont understand the very basics of economy

It's just a shift of the meta. We still have 100+ex items. Just another ones. ES builds are mostly dead now, who needs shav anymore? But you can easily get a mirror for a Zerphi's Heart. But I don't think shavs is much more common. In my 1700 hours I never got one.

The problem is that there should be no economy at all. It is an ARPG. Kill, loot, rinse, repeat.

SSF mode slightly fixes this issue ("fix" is not the correct word to use, becasue it feels like a forced hack). It forces you to ignore only 90% of the things that drop, instead of 99.95% you'd ignore in trade leagues. I still highlight blue bases in my "endgame" filter, because I can't insta-shop for them.

This is a bad fix that only works on a subset of the playerbase. Looting (gear) in PoE is indeed boring, because of the sheer amount of drops and thus the need to severely lower the quality. I always liked the 2.4 base items (crystal belt, opal rings, etc..) because they are so rare.

The base quantity of (gear) drops should be low (like 5% of the current amount). The quality of affixes should be scaled by tier of the content you're doing, by the difficulty of the map and by the difficulty of the monster. Eg. the boss of a 8 afffix, corrupted T16, should have the highest chance for good drops. The output of such maps should be considerably better, than doing low easy content faster.

The fact that you can gear up for red map, by doing easy white maps, is laughable. The fact that in trade leagues you can buy everything (acces to content and/or gear), just by doing T1 maps, is not worthy the promo title of "hardcore gaem". The word "progression" doesn't even apply, when trading allows you to jump from Aqueduct farming into red maps.

The player should be pushed into playing harder content, not given "safe spaces" by easy content being able to drop most items in the game. Maybe the infinite dungeon will bring this much needed "difficulty/reward" feeling to the game. But I doubt it, because it would need to invalidate most of the mapping. Why risk "delving", when you can get more wealth by speed farming white maps without any risk?

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morbo написал:

SSF mode slightly fixes this issue ("fix" is not the correct word to use, becasue it feels like a forced hack). It forces you to ignore only 90% of the things that drop, instead of 99.95% you'd ignore in trade leagues. I still highlight blue bases in my "endgame" filter, because I can't insta-shop for them.

This is a bad fix that only works on a subset of the playerbase. Looting (gear) in PoE is indeed boring, because of the sheer amount of drops and thus the need to severely lower the quality. I always liked the 2.4 base items (crystal belt, opal rings, etc..) because they are so rare.

The base quantity of (gear) drops should be low (like 5% of the current amount). The quality of affixes should be scaled by tier of the content you're doing, by the difficulty of the map and by the difficulty of the monster. Eg. the boss of a 8 afffix, corrupted T16, should have the highest chance for good drops. The output of such maps should be considerably better, than doing low easy content faster.

The fact that you can gear up for red map, by doing easy white maps, is laughable. The fact that in trade leagues you can buy everything (acces to content and/or gear), just by doing T1 maps, is not worthy the promo title of "hardcore gaem". The word "progression" doesn't even apply, when trading allows you to jump from Aqueduct farming into red maps.

The player should be pushed into playing harder content, not given "safe spaces" by easy content being able to drop most items in the game. Maybe the infinite dungeon will bring this much needed "difficulty/reward" feeling to the game. But I doubt it, because it would need to invalidate most of the mapping. Why risk "delving", when you can get more wealth by speed farming white maps without any risk?

SSF doesn't really fix anything since it offers nothing you can't have without it.

Rare bases are pretty useless. Crafting is way too expensive and unreliable. If only one out of 1000 rares is decent, you need 1000 chaos orbs to roll a decent thing. Or you can just buy something close enough to what you need for 1/20 of this sum.

Yes, it is hilarious how poor risk/reward scaling is. Estimated profit per map from T1 and T16 is weighted towards T1 since currency drop is the same and you can make chaos sets on T1.

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Oblitus написал:

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grepman написал:

the real issue is that its always better to farm currency and then buy what you need because of item inflation.

It's not item inflation. It's the fact that you can't rely on drops.

has nothing to do with it.

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You can play hundreds of hours and loot nothing but trash.

nonsense. look at ssf players with experience play the game for 100 hours. see what they loot. take random 100 hours of raizqt play in ssf and see how much shit he dropped

things RAIN from the sky comparable to what they used to

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Currency is reliable.

I mentioned that by saying its stable and predictable, which is another way to say what you said

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It's just a shift of the meta.

no it isnt, thats a poor comparison
t1 uniques and t2 uniques drops were raised by A LOT compared with 2013.

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But you can easily get a mirror for a Zerphi's Heart

this must be an item from the last temp league. temp league items are a whole different story. my point was that the more unique drops, the more they devalue their prices, which for some reason you're trying to deny. it wasnt specifically about shavs.

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The problem is that there should be no economy at all. It is an ARPG. Kill, loot, rinse, repeat.

but there is and its a vital part of the main game. its pointless to discuss the one of the main pillars this game was built upon- the pillar is not getting removed. the ssf mode is for people who dont want to trade. there, items are 'worth' something. atziris flask probably becomes the first unique flask youre getting, because of how powerful it is.

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Oblitus написал:

SSF doesn't really fix anything since it offers nothing you can't have without it.

SSF "improves" the looting experience, by forcing you to pay attention to more drops, than you would have in trade leagues. Drops matter more, but this is a shitty "fix" that only work for a subset of players.

In any case, my biggest problem with looting is that playing early easy game has a much better risk/reward ratio than playing difficult late game ("difficult" in both gameplay and price of access). Outside of a handful of specific items, everything drops in easy maps.

Eg. this is the best sword I've ever found, and it can drop in a lvl 59 zone ("of penetrating" is the highest affix). Make that T1 maps, so that you can add quantity/quality to the zone and you are good to go. It's an endgame sword, that I'll unlikely find a replacement for no matter how much red maps I run.



The tiered affix system makes this risk/reward so skewed. Maybe after the infinite dungeon, GGG needs to remove the tiered system and introduce smooth / incremental scaling of affixes. Higher zones drop slightly better items in small increments.