It's time for GGG to take back reigns of trade for the sake of the game

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Nubatron написал:

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DarthSki44 написал:

Interstersing. So in your view it's not really worth it for GGG to combat RMT becasue the resulting potential revenue dips were inevitable anyways? People will just find something else to be angry about so why concern themselves with RMT in general?

That's a strawman and you know it. I never said that.

I believe GGG is doing things and I suspect they could do more. I also wouldn't pretend to know the statistics of banned accounts for RMT. We don't even know how many unique people play this game because information like that is so abstracted. GGG has never been forthcoming about their activities in this space for better or worse.

My point is that RMT isn't something you can beat; you only try to create some resistance, so most people won't do it (which I suspect is the case right now). I believe they are doing that because it would be so much worse if they didn't.

Yes it was. I was trying to get you concede that there must be a reason why GGG wants to combat RMT, and that reason, imo, is financially driven. Otherwise what is the point? If we agree GGG is fighting RMT (poorly imo), why do you think they do so?

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Nubatron написал:

My point is that RMT isn't something you can beat; you only try to create some resistance, so most people won't do it (which I suspect is the case right now). I believe they are doing that because it would be so much worse if they didn't.

They aren't even banning people en masse. Go check out the cheat sites for PoE, no one is getting banned except a small handful of people. It is worse today than it has ever been.

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DarthSki44 написал:

Yes it was. I was trying to get you concede that there must be a reason why GGG wants to combat RMT, and that reason, imo, is financially driven. Otherwise what is the point? If we agree GGG is fighting RMT (poorly imo), why do you think they do so?

There is a host of reasons to combat RMT, and one of them is financial but not for the reasons you've been stating in my opinion. Ironically, this leads directly to why it's bad to make getting items too easy. If gearing out is too easy, I believe it makes the game too easy and in turn loses its appeal quickly. God-mode is great, until it isn't. If RMT was openly okay, a ton more people would do it, gear up quickly and then lose interest in the game because the core of this game is the hunt of gear. Some people make it about more than that, but at its heart, this is a gear hunting game. So yeah, RMT short circuits that gear hunt and would lead to less retention.

But there are more reasons to combat RMT beyond just financial. There is the integrity of the game, which a developer who cares about their game will always protect. There is financial interest there for sure, but there is also protecting your work product, your creation. RMT is a blemish on that integrity. It also turns players off to the credit card warriors (as they were referred to in D3 during the RMAH. The RMAH pulled a lot of items out of traditional trade and were exclusive to RMT. The integrity of your game is important on this front as well. If the best items instantly flow to RMT, then the trade market is low end only. GGG has explicitly stated that they want items to have value, even if that item has no value for your build -- meaning someone might want something if you don't. Again, RMT undermines that.

And even worse, a developer has limited influence or ability to stop it, so it is particularly aggravating. The best way to combat RMT is hilarious and not a good path because if your game is popular and players find value in your game, there will be RMT. So just don't make a popular game; right?

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DarthSki44 написал:

Yes it was. I was trying to get you concede that there must be a reason why GGG wants to combat RMT, and that reason, imo, is financially driven. Otherwise what is the point? If we agree GGG is fighting RMT (poorly imo), why do you think they do so?

At the bottom line? Sure, financially. But we all know they do consider the economy pretty holy, at least the temp league economy. Fighting RMT does help improve the economy, at least in their eyes - and helps make the game more fair for everyone. And a more fair environment makes people enjoy themselves more (well, at least people playing by the rules) - which again, maybe makes them more likely to spend a dime or two.

I have no idea if their fight against RMT is "poorly executed". I have noe idea how many people they ban every league. I have no idea if the "evidence" we see posted these days is 100% legit. I have no idea if the fight against RMT in PoE is worse than other games with a RMT problem (OSRS, Lost Ark, Eve, Escape From Tarkov or whatever). If we measure their efforts against a "perfect scenario", sure - every developer is the history has been doing it "poorly".

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Nulledout написал:

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Nubatron написал:

My point is that RMT isn't something you can beat; you only try to create some resistance, so most people won't do it (which I suspect is the case right now). I believe they are doing that because it would be so much worse if they didn't.

They aren't even banning people en masse. Go check out the cheat sites for PoE, no one is getting banned except a small handful of people. It is worse today than it has ever been.

While I'm supremely cynical here when it comes to GGG on this, I suppose it's possible that the GGG silence might be a precusor of a large ban wave coming, and the preperation for that. Perhaps they do want to make a bigger splash just for a PR win. Idk even writing this as a possibility from a devils advocate standpoint, seems like Copium to the extreme lol.

I mean why wouldn't a generic GGG post in this thread or reddit with the most general statement of "we take this seriously, if you have evidence, please contact support". That's seems like some easy low hanging fruit.

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DarthSki44 написал:

I mean why wouldn't a generic GGG post in this thread or reddit whith the most general statement of "we take this seriously, if you have evidence, please contact support". That's seems like some easy low hanging fruit.

Yeah, after they announced their departure from Reddit, is has been real quiet on most fronts.

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Phrazz написал:

I have no idea if their fight against RMT is "poorly executed". I have noe idea how many people they ban every league. I have no idea if the "evidence" we see posted these days is 100% legit. I have no idea if the fight against RMT in PoE is worse than other games with a RMT problem (OSRS, Lost Ark, Eve, Escape From Tarkov or whatever). If we measure their efforts against a "perfect scenario", sure - every developer is the history has been doing it "poorly".

Not to get bogged down with semanitcis here, but if not poorly, than ineffective, or inadequate? I mean something? It's not in a great place enforcement wise. Do we agree there? Or not even on that?

And in general lost revenue potential, losing money in real time (comps), reduction in total revenue, ect...all falls under financial impacts in the end right?

So if RMT causes people to leave, or hurts the economy and people leave, or impacts the games integrity which causes people to leave, or people spend on currency with RMT instead of supporter packs/tabs, that's all the same thing with respect to the bottom line.

That's the point I was and have been making.

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DarthSki44 написал:

Not to get bogged down with semanitcis here, but if not poorly, than ineffective, or inadequate? I mean something? It's not in a great place enforcement wise. Do we agree there? Or not even on that?

My point: It depends solely on what you're measuring up against. Do you have an example of a good job? An adequate job? An effective job? And if GGG is doing a poor job, is every developer doing a poor job? What are we measuring up against then? 0% goal?

Personally, I have no clue. What so ever. I've never RMT'd. I've never visited an RMT site. While I've played many games where RMT has been a problem, I've never seen a "public fight" against it, I've never seen a post saying "Good job on the war on RMT, devs". I've never seem a community happy about how devs are fighting RMT. And that should be pretty exceptional, as people in this thread claims is so freakin' easy to do.

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Phrazz написал:

I've never seen a "public fight" against it, I've never seen a post saying "Good job on the war on RMT, devs". I've never seem a community happy about how devs are fighting RMT. And that should be pretty exceptional, as people in this thread claims is so freakin' easy to do.

Because the effect is rather obvious, as I've linked before. It makes them aware. Although it's quite simple for GGG to just say "We're aware and are fighting it to the fullest", as long as they don't go in detail on how. So far, not a squeak.

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Phrazz написал:

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DarthSki44 написал:

Not to get bogged down with semanitcis here, but if not poorly, than ineffective, or inadequate? I mean something? It's not in a great place enforcement wise. Do we agree there? Or not even on that?

My point: It depends solely on what you're measuring up against. Do you have an example of a good job? An adequate job? An effective job? And if GGG is doing a poor job, is every developer doing a poor job? What are we measuring up against then? 0% goal?

Personally, I have no clue. What so ever. I've never RMT'd. I've never visited an RMT site. While I've played many games where RMT has been a problem, I've never seen a "public fight" against it, I've never seen a post saying "Good job on the war on RMT, devs". I've never seem a community happy about how devs are fighting RMT. And that should be pretty exceptional, as people in this thread claims is so freakin' easy to do.

Well I dont know why GGG is so silent on ToS enforcement when it comes to bans, RMT or otherwise. Plenty of developers release data like this during "ban waves" for cheating or mass ToS issues. Dota 2 yesterday announced a 40k player ban for example. Destiny 2 (Bungie), is another that is not afraid to take action and make it public.

I would say that there is a lot of RMT happening in PoE, and while enforcement is anecdotal, because GGG is mum on this, there are plenty of people indicating they know people doing it, doing it themselves, or have tracked individuals that seemingly have no action taken. I've never personally engaged in RMT either, but I don't have a head buried in the sand on it. The information is out there if interested.