Why dedicate my time if I can lose all my XP with a death penalty?

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mrfox123#7595 написал:

They're also hysterical about everyone swapping to glass cannon... When everyone are already running glass cannon since that's quite frankly the safest way to play the game now, kill stuff before stuff kills you.

As we all know now, armor is useless. And even capped resistance is useless against the heavy boss attacks.

Yeah, but at least "Glass Cannon Builds shouldn't be viable" is a understandable game design choice. Maybe we disagree, but that is a valid game design choice.

"If other people can do it (even if takes them 5 times as long) my achievement means nothing." is not. Especially since its a video game, its not a real achievement anyway. That is what real life is for.

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dwqrf#0717 написал:

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Akedomo#3573 написал:

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dwqrf#0717 написал:

How is that even a bad thing ? In the history of video game, a lot of products were made to be bought for 15-60$ and to be played for 50-100h. That's quite standard. PoE2 is the same. Playing the campaign as a casual is a blast.

Because. PoE is a live service game. That's what they do.

And it's free. So the situation should look even more problematic.

Not sure what the rest of your post is about, nor do I really care at this point. DwQRf.

Then it means I'm right, again.

Then you are going to claim again that no one gave you argument as to why there is a death penalty ; when you just refuse to read what people are telling you, because deep down you know they are right but you don't like it.

That means you are wrong. A successful live service game needs a growing amount of repeat customers and high retention and return rates. If PoE2 is made to be played for 50-100hours then put down you fundamentally go against the purpose of live service. You don't know what you are talking about and all you do is be offensive towards others or belittle them trying to feel superior, you would think that after getting timed at least once on the forum you would understand that lol.

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paudertzz#2085 написал:

Consistency in a tedious situation is a challenging skill to have. Look at all of the comments of the people that don't have that skill. They wont make it 100, that's fine. They just need to adjust their frame of reference; If you don't put in the effort, don't expect the same as everyone else. Simple as.

This isn't even an issue of consistency or skill. Though I know that's what people like to try to boil it down to.

It's simply one of a time-sink, padding gameplay.

Games these days are demanding more and more of a players time, and people are sick of it. When they encounter a mechanic like XP loss on death. That's all it is for the majority of players.

Games that pad game time, are all almost universally losing players, or the players are now asking for the game to respect their time more. You can see this in MMO's, you can see this in shooter games, you can see this in any game that requires you to play, to unlock stuff over-time. Majority of people are sick of it.

They are instead gravitating towards games that do respect their time better. And that's what's going to happen to PoE 2, if this mechanic stays in. People will just leave and find a game that doesn't waste their time with game pad mechanics.


This is a similar situation to all the games with predatory Microtransactions too. Players are sick of it. And they'll completely forgo a game because of it.

This is also a similar situation, to all these game companies that aren't innovating in their games, and keep releasing the same game over and over, but with a different title. Have you seen Ubisoft lately?

Players are just sick of not having good gaming experiences.

You can defend the mechanic all you want, but if the goal of this game is to bring in players. It's not going to help.

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Waitn4D4#0477 написал:

If people got their way this game would let people level to 100 in a day, there would be infinite portals, no rarity or quant on anything but every monster would be a loot pinata, you could run any skill/support gem combo and kill anything in the game, and absolutely everything would be easy and trivialized. We already have that game though, its called Diablo 4.

Hear hear brother.

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paudertzz#2085 написал:

Consistency in a tedious situation is a challenging skill to have. Look at all of the comments of the people that don't have that skill. They wont make it 100, that's fine. They just need to adjust their frame of reference; If you don't put in the effort, don't expect the same as everyone else. Simple as.

This is a believable argument but it doesn't really seem to befit a live service game.
Consumers are not looking for tedium in their spare time, their skill of consistency in face of tedious situations is what they show during their job for 8+ hours. This skill you ask for is not helping for stress relief, usually anyway, which is why it is such a hot topic in an entertainment product and the commonly asked for solution, one of multiple, is to make it optional. Tons of ways to go about it, GGG has to figure out the details.

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BK2710#6123 написал:

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paudertzz#2085 написал:

Consistency in a tedious situation is a challenging skill to have. Look at all of the comments of the people that don't have that skill. They wont make it 100, that's fine. They just need to adjust their frame of reference; If you don't put in the effort, don't expect the same as everyone else. Simple as.

This is a believable argument but it doesn't really seem to befit a live service game.
Consumers are not looking for tedium in their spare time, their skill of consistency in face of tedious situations is what they show during their job for 8+ hours. This skill you ask for is not helping for stress relief, usually anyway, which is why it is such a hot topic in an entertainment product and the commonly asked for solution, one of multiple, is to make it optional. Tons of ways to go about it, GGG has to figure out the details.

Let's be real, GGG is going to ignore the topic :)

It's most likely a done deal for them.

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adrenrocker#5143 написал:

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Akedomo#3573 написал:

What we don't need, is a handful of players who get an ego boost from the mechanic.

Yeah, everyone who likes XP loss and is arguing that without it too many people will get to 100 and thus their achievement is worth less are not helping their cause. If I run a Marathon in an hour my achievement is not lessened because someone else did it in 5 hours, it looks more impressive. Yes, with (as an example replacement) XP debt vs xp loss people will eventually get to 100 if they play long enough. If it takes them 4-5 times as long who cares? And lets be real, how many people are actually gonna do it that way. Even playing smart it takes forever to reach 100, i seriously doubt many people are going to put in 4-5 times the amount of hours to hit 100 even if XP loss is replaced with XP debt. Whats more likely to happen is people with limited time have been given the leeway to experiment and figure out what they are doing wrong.

All you need to do is look at the reaction to a mechanic, to determine if it's a good or bad one in a game.

This one, Has people complaining about it being frustrating.

And then it has people that like it, Defending it, by insulting and attacking those that don't like it. Bullying them.


That to me, indicates it's an unhealthy mechanic.

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paudertzz#2085 написал:

Your achievement for a marathon in a hour looks a lot more impressive when compared to all of the people in the world that can't run a block in an hour or the ones that fail to finish the race.

No, it looks like I had a lot more free time on my hands and decided to dedicate that time to marathon running then the people who don't even run do. Comparing yourself to people entirely outside the activity is silly because there are tons of reasons they are not in the activity. I have no idea how good or bad they might have been, for all I know I got lucky because the two people faster than me woke up sick. If you are expecting a performance comparison to make you feel good comparing yourself to anyone outside the activity is nonsense. Unless you just want to feel superior I guess? In which case its a video game/race, get over yourself.

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Seiniyta#0050 написал:

I honestly just find it an outdated mechanic.

I'd rather see the following (nerf xp gain by 10٪ after lvl 70 and give a 10 or 15% bonus xp for your next map when you beat a map without dying. Promote good play but also doesn't stress/frustrate you when you die.

Or just take away the player's exp for that map if they die, and introduce a consumable item that restores it.

Exp loss that can include loss of content you're not currently running + waystone loss + map attributes loss is a bit too much of a triple whammy imo.

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Waitn4D4#0477 написал:

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BK2710#6123 написал:

This is about retention and respecting a players time, if a player leaves satisfied they are likely to return

Is retention all that matters? I mean look at D4. That game is literally more popular than POE. Many of us absolutely hate it. I played it over 4 seasons and quit permanently because its such a brain dead, hollow shell of a game. Everything is trivial, nothing is a challenge, its just a big arcadey ARPG experience. Theyve capitulated to the casuals again and again, and sure they have higher retention but the game is soulless. You ding 100 and dont even get 1 drop of dopamine because its so meaningless and anti-climatic. There are no more chase items because you can just turn uniques into dust and combine them back into whatever unique you want off a list of uniques. Everything has been dumbed down and made accessible for 10 year olds or people who can only play games 4 hours a week. That doesnt make a game "good" even if it makes it "popular" amongst the masses.

Retention is an important metric for tencent, one of the biggest. Yes.
D4 bad is funny I know but they improve the product each update as well.

You use yourself and project it on everyone in regards to the dopamine. Many players playing any rpg, not just arpg, don't get such a huge dopamine hit because leveling is part of the expected character progression. That includes 100. 100 is not an achievement or anything skillful either (many defenders just want to sell boosts, they have a vested interest).
Just as you say, a game is not necessarily good because it is dumbed down, the opposite to that is true as well. Making it overly complicated is not good either.
This is taking it to the extreme anyway as no one asks for the game to be easier, as can be seen when following the topic (multiple threads by now) with things such as playing without deaths for long periods of time yielding greater rewards so you reward good players instead of punishing bad ones, the end result is the same of good players being rewarded but you are able to have returning players in the lower end making everyone happy.
The leveling to 100 is already dumbed down to the max lets be frank here, you farm level 80 enemies and as long as you are not falling asleep running waystones with build bricking affixes you are good to go but that is not something a player will enjoy as this is really on the levels of checking your excel sheet if you did things correctly.
Some of the greatest games of all time were made specifically for people who play 4hours a week, world of warcraft or deus ex and the list goes on, so the personal rankings of what is and is not a good/hardcore player are meaningless.
I used to play dota2 and was above 6000mmr when that was top 0.1%, nowadays I don't care anymore and spend little time in some games.. am I now a bad casual player? Time investment=/=intellect or capability to learn. People who are very casual timewise also partially play difficult roguelikes such as tome4, are they bad even though the games are complicated and offer more difficulty than poe could ever provide?

You do mention, whether knowingly or not, a more important problem that you yourself also suffer from. If leveling is your dopamine, lack of chase items and what not, you complain about other games being a hollow shell (I interpret this as railroad you to endgame, bad campaign experience (poe2 has been fun in campaign for me), so you get to grind current seasonal content), then does that not mean that the game is lacking in meaningful content for a player comfortably in end game?
There should be difficult content that requires attention and focus, challenging gauntlet runs and what not, but that is missing (let's say it is patch 0.1 to excuse it for now) so the only "end game" you have is the xp grind.
Seems to me like that is important enough to be worked on.