CRAFTING SHOULD NOT BE RNG, OTHERWISE IT'S NOT CRAFTING

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Twelten#1961 написал:

We’re actually not that far off in our thinking. I totally get your point, if you have strong loot, strong crafting, and trading all maxed out, it risks trivializing the game. But I think the key lies in balance and intention behind each system.

Crafting doesn’t have to be ultra-deterministic or super powerful, just reliable enough to help smooth out the RNG when loot or trade doesn’t fill in the gaps. Harvest (pre-nerf) hit that sweet spot for many: it required effort, had limits, but offered control. That doesn’t break the game, it just respects the player’s time.

And yeah, killing monsters should be the best way to get items, no argument there. But it sucks when you kill thousands and still feel forced to gamble crafts or flip trade tabs for something usable. That’s where a little more crafting control goes a long way, especially for SSF or casual players.

I don’t think it’s about picking 2 out of 3 (loot, craft, trade), it’s about ensuring each one complements the others without invalidating them. That middle ground is tricky, but not impossible.

That's reasonable thinking.

It is a subjective and complicated matter.

Because it depends a lot on where you are at the game. It comes a point in ARPG that you want extremely good items and you can farm for days without a single upgrade. I guess that's almost unavoidable.

Maybe crafting shouldn't help in the peak endgame that much or else it dillutes the rarity of items.

I think a simple solution is to make orbs have more chance to give better rolls/affix tiers.

Regarding early levels, I just find extremely boring when I can remove any weaknesses of my build by just by easily pay to get an affix(Last Epoch).

It is cool to fight tough enemies in the early levels when you are not resist capped, or with other imperfections on your build. Adapt when you have a bad lucky streak is also part of the game for me.

Maybe the best moment to unlock more consistent crafting is when you enter maps for the first time. There you will need the "extra help" to smooth out the difficulty curve if you have really bad luck, because the spike in difficulty seems a bit more unforgiving.

But, yeah... it is not easy to balance

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Gordyne#2944 написал:

That's reasonable thinking.

It is a subjective and complicated matter.

Because it depends a lot on where you are at the game. It comes a point in ARPG that you want extremely good items and you can farm for days without a single upgrade. I guess that's almost unavoidable.

Maybe crafting shouldn't help in the peak endgame that much or else it dillutes the rarity of items.

I think a simple solution is to make orbs have more chance to give better rolls/affix tiers.

Regarding early levels, I just find extremely boring when I can remove any weaknesses of my build by just by easily pay to get an affix(Last Epoch).

It is cool to fight tough enemies in the early levels when you are not resist capped, or with other imperfections on your build. Adapt when you have a bad lucky streak is also part of the game for me.

Maybe the best moment to unlock more consistent crafting is when you enter maps for the first time. There you will need the "extra help" to smooth out the difficulty curve if you have really bad luck, because the spike in difficulty seems a bit more unforgiving.

But, yeah... it is not easy to balance

It kinda is easy to balance.

PoE1 already did it.
Let's port the crafting system from PoE1 into PoE2, for example.

Now you are some Ranger build, and you have to fight Jamanra. Avoiding the lighting damage can be tricky because most of them are "AoE" and thus, cannot be evaded unless you have "Acrobatics" (you don't in Act 2).
A huge life pool? Unlikely, you are in the DEX area of the tree, and even if you weren't, there isn't much life on the tree anyway.
So, how to help with your issue? You go to the crafting bench and craft lightning res on your gear until you feel comfortable.
Is it free? No. You still need currency to apply the craft.

The resources needed are the balance. That simple. And yes, I know, I know. Runes exist bla. But GGG wants you to swap your gear constantly in the early game, thus... you are heavily cucked by the artificer orbs. AND, more importantly, I could do this example with any other stat/mod you cannot fix with runes.

But what is with ppl like you, who like the challenge? Well, then don't use the tools given to you. I do the same in PoE1. I am not the biggest zoom-zoom boom-boom fan, thus I mostly play builds that are considered "slower" in PoE1, but I have the choice - like everyone else.
You want zoom? You can. You don't want to zoom? The same.

In PoE2, they just took away tools, so you end up with fewer choices.

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JakkerONAIR#4902 написал:

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Gordyne#2944 написал:

That's reasonable thinking.

It is a subjective and complicated matter.

Because it depends a lot on where you are at the game. It comes a point in ARPG that you want extremely good items and you can farm for days without a single upgrade. I guess that's almost unavoidable.

Maybe crafting shouldn't help in the peak endgame that much or else it dillutes the rarity of items.

I think a simple solution is to make orbs have more chance to give better rolls/affix tiers.

Regarding early levels, I just find extremely boring when I can remove any weaknesses of my build by just by easily pay to get an affix(Last Epoch).

It is cool to fight tough enemies in the early levels when you are not resist capped, or with other imperfections on your build. Adapt when you have a bad lucky streak is also part of the game for me.

Maybe the best moment to unlock more consistent crafting is when you enter maps for the first time. There you will need the "extra help" to smooth out the difficulty curve if you have really bad luck, because the spike in difficulty seems a bit more unforgiving.

But, yeah... it is not easy to balance

It kinda is easy to balance.

PoE1 already did it.
Let's port the crafting system from PoE1 into PoE2, for example.

Now you are some Ranger build, and you have to fight Jamanra. Avoiding the lighting damage can be tricky because most of them are "AoE" and thus, cannot be evaded unless you have "Acrobatics" (you don't in Act 2).
A huge life pool? Unlikely, you are in the DEX area of the tree, and even if you weren't, there isn't much life on the tree anyway.
So, how to help with your issue? You go to the crafting bench and craft lightning res on your gear until you feel comfortable.
Is it free? No. You still need currency to apply the craft.

The resources needed are the balance. That simple. And yes, I know, I know. Runes exist bla. But GGG wants you to swap your gear constantly in the early game, thus... you are heavily cucked by the artificer orbs. AND, more importantly, I could do this example with any other stat/mod you cannot fix with runes.

But what is with ppl like you, who like the challenge? Well, then don't use the tools given to you. I do the same in PoE1. I am not the biggest zoom-zoom boom-boom fan, thus I mostly play builds that are considered "slower" in PoE1, but I have the choice - like everyone else.
You want zoom? You can. You don't want to zoom? The same.

In PoE2, they just took away tools, so you end up with fewer choices.

Just to be clear, talking about the early levels here(1-60 at least):

PoE1 crafting bench is a perfect example that made the campaign incredibly easy and streamlined, I didn't like it when it was created. You can easily reach 75% res and only phys and chaos will have some chance to kill you. Elemental mobs lose the relevance quickly in PoE1

Well, IF the prices of crafting were moderately higher, then it wouldn't be that bad.

Maybe that's a problem of the res. being exponentially better after you pass the 50% threshold, so getting +15% fire resist from the crafting bench helps A LOT vs. a fire element Boss.

Your example with Jamanra is a good one. Why do you want to feel "confortable" fighting an act boss? It is a Boss. It's supposed to be kind of scary if you don't learn the fight.

And then there is the problem of evasion being... well, evasion.

But even that could be solved by farming early areas IF the loot drops were actually better. Just paying measly 3-5 chaos orbs to make the fight a lot easier feels very artificial. Farming is just more organic.

Either that or you risk/learn the fight.

You can also adapt and just use a magic ring with like +25% Lightning res. It would be much more useful than a ring that gives you 50% Cold res. if the Boss doesn't use Cold.

Adapt, think...

That's a perfect example of crafting trivializing the game. And let's be honest... Jamanra is not even hard.

So, sorry. I'm personally not a fan of this mentality of "let me feel confortable" when fighting enemies that should pose a challenge.

It is a good example of instant gratification mentality that makes you don't want to actually "play" the game.

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Gordyne#2944 написал:

Your example with Jamanra is a good one. Why do you want to feel "confortable" fighting an act boss? It is a Boss. It's supposed to be kind of scary if you don't learn the fight.

It's not about "feeling comfortable" to a point where you can take a nap while fighting him, you know, bosses still have mechanics you need to play.
It's about "feeling comfortable" to not get one-shot, instead, being able to react to damage with a flask or something.

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But even that could be solved by farming early areas IF the loot drops were actually better. Just paying measly 3-5 chaos orbs to make the fight a lot easier feels very artificial. Farming is just more organic.

So, you want ppl to farm earlier areas to get a "Lightning Res Ring", but you don't want them to farm currency for a "Lightning Res Craft" because it feels artificial?
What? Both options rely on "You having the resource to deal with a problem".

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You can also adapt and just use a magic ring with like +25% Lightning res. It would be much more useful than a ring that gives you 50% Cold res. if the Boss doesn't use Cold.

Adapt, think...

Having an item for whatever situation in your stash so you swap it in some situations is not more "thinking" then evaluating if you want to spend currency for something now, or keep for later.

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It is a good example of instant gratification mentality that makes you don't want to actually "play" the game.

The mentality "My way of playing the game is the only valid one and other options should not be available" is... interesting. Sounds like you need some gratification in a sense "Look, I am able to beat this hArD game!", when ARPGs will never ever be hard.

GGG, Let's Call It What It Is: Gear Gambling

You know what crafting usually means, right? Since when does "crafting" mean you click a button and bam, your item turns into something completely different?

Imagine crafting iron sword in real life and it randomly becomes a wooden sword. That’s not crafting, that’s a dice roll.

GGG’s version of crafting is like saying, “Hey, throw some orbs on this and maybe it’ll be good. Or maybe it’ll brick and you cry.” That’s not a system of creation, it’s a system of chance.

Let’s stop pretending it’s crafting. It’s gear gambling, plain and simple.

:)

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JakkerONAIR#4902 написал:

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Gordyne#2944 написал:

Your example with Jamanra is a good one. Why do you want to feel "confortable" fighting an act boss? It is a Boss. It's supposed to be kind of scary if you don't learn the fight.

It's not about "feeling comfortable" to a point where you can take a nap while fighting him, you know, bosses still have mechanics you need to play.
It's about "feeling comfortable" to not get one-shot, instead, being able to react to damage with a flask or something.

"

But even that could be solved by farming early areas IF the loot drops were actually better. Just paying measly 3-5 chaos orbs to make the fight a lot easier feels very artificial. Farming is just more organic.

So, you want ppl to farm earlier areas to get a "Lightning Res Ring", but you don't want them to farm currency for a "Lightning Res Craft" because it feels artificial?
What? Both options rely on "You having the resource to deal with a problem".

"

You can also adapt and just use a magic ring with like +25% Lightning res. It would be much more useful than a ring that gives you 50% Cold res. if the Boss doesn't use Cold.

Adapt, think...

Having an item for whatever situation in your stash so you swap it in some situations is not more "thinking" then evaluating if you want to spend currency for something now, or keep for later.

"

It is a good example of instant gratification mentality that makes you don't want to actually "play" the game.

The mentality "My way of playing the game is the only valid one and other options should not be available" is... interesting. Sounds like you need some gratification in a sense "Look, I am able to beat this hArD game!", when ARPGs will never ever be hard.

It's not "my way of playing the game" it is about bosses meaning something. If everyone has diamonds then diamonds lose all value.

If Bosses can be trivialized by using 2 chaos orbs then they aren't much of a boss.

Also, you don't need to farm much, you can even buy/transmute a basic magic ring.

And if you are getting one shot by this boss either you aren't dodging important attacks or your defences/build is severely flawed.

Even then the game already gives you lots of tools and ways of dealing with this, you don't need another one.

Honestly I'm not against GGG creating an *Easy* difficulty mode for people that want a more relaxing experience, because it seems that's what a portion of the community wants: "A much easier game".

So no, I don't want everyone to play "My way".

EDIT: Oh and also... ARPGs can be pretty hard. Try playing D2 single player on an off-meta build. Most casual player give up in nightmare difficulty IF they even reach that.
Very few people that don't know what they are doing will beat Baal on Hell difficulty in SP mode.

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Gordyne#2944 написал:

It's not "my way of playing the game" it is about bosses meaning something. If everyone has diamonds then diamonds lose all value.

If Bosses can be trivialized by using 2 chaos orbs then they aren't much of a boss.

That's nonsensical.

In your mind, ppl could trivialise a boss when they are able to add some lighting res with a craft that costs currency.
While you "trivialise" the boss too with using just another ring from your stash.
So... the actual thing here is "adding res - no matter the method - trivialises bosses". Well, then it's because the bosses in this game are trivial.

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Even then the game already gives you lots of tools and ways of dealing with this, you don't need another one.

Meaningless because it subjective.

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Honestly I'm not against GGG creating an *Easy* difficulty mode for people that want a more relaxing experience, because it seems that's what a portion of the community wants: "A much easier game".

So it IS some weird self-gratification... instead of allowing ppl to use different tools than you want to use who still play together - you want them to be somewhere else, because you want your "not easy" PoE experience to be "pure".
Again, ARPGs are not hard, period.

They can be difficult to learn with all the required knowledge, they can take a lot of time depending on the grind, but they are not "hard". You know what's hard?
https://youtu.be/bsmk2VMxS4Q?si=6xPTZFaIDNNA27k-&t=253

All I know is when I went back to Phrecia for the lvl 80 cosmetic rewards for PoE2... it was wildly night and day.

I get it, it's a different game... but how do you not even take a sliver of that control over to your 'sequel'?

I'd be levelling, and need an upgraded weapon. So I would buy from vendor or loot a white base, and essence slam it (with actual good deterministic essences). Then I would craft on the crafting bench to add something relevant to me for whatever empty affix slot I had (ie, more ele damage, sure I like that, it helps me), exalt the last empty mod if there was one, then bring it over to Kalguur for runecrafts and add some basically free flat ele damage, quality and socket, GG. In the span of 3 minutes I was able to upgrade my weapon slot, and didn't throw 90% of my currency tab into it to do so.

Basically any time I needed a bit of an upgrade, I was able to craft one within minutes without feeling completely awful. There wasn't a single time in my 1-80 journey where attempting this gave me a 'brick'. If it didn't quite hit for me, I was able to sell it for a few ex. And generally it was an upgrade, even if by a small amount.

Today I slammed ~300 exalts into gear I found on the ground in PoE2. Gear of course that dropped with good high tier starting mods. Only for me to slam stun thresh, light radius, reduced requirements, etc... or if it did hit the 'good' mods, it would taunt me with 14 life, 9% in a resist, or 4% lightning damage...

And guess what, as an average player, I didn't have 500div worth of whittling omens to utilize. Even the thought of slamming raw chaos orbs into them was never gonna fly. Sorry I'd rather have the 4exalt liquid value of those orbs.

I've watched top tier 'crafting' in PoE2. It does exist, but its so extremely gatekept by rarity and economy. I've watched big content creators slam a 'mirror' worth of omens and chaos and such into rings, to craft godly triple attribute / triple attack rings. It looked great what they were doing... but again, the materials to do so are locked to the .1% playerbase.

How often actually can any person in this game pick up an item off the ground, slap it with like 10 currency items max, and it be an item worth hundreds of divs... almost never.

Now of course we shouldn't be just handed best items, nor have some sort of 'item editor' type of ease of access... but damn if this system is not it.

Also the like 100 times I've tried recombinator at 15% or less chance... poof. Just gone. Thankfully its always been gear I was gonna vendor otherwise... but what even is the point of that system?

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Sanktusdub#4305 написал:

All I know is when I went back to Phrecia for the lvl 80 cosmetic rewards for PoE2... it was wildly night and day.

I agree with everything you said. Do you remember the complaints in PoE1 when something was "only for the top 1%"? Now they have made it even worse, and only the "top 0.1%" can reliably do it.

I have the feeling that only two types of ppl defend the "crafting" in PoE2 right now.

1) Ppl who have a gambling addiction and resonate with the crafting slot machine.

2) Ppl who don't understand how to craft and feel good now, because without crafting in the game, they have one "skill issue" less. Like, "If nobody can craft anymore, I don't need to feel bad that I am unable to craft even with an actual crafting system.".

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JakkerONAIR#4902 написал:

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Gordyne#2944 написал:

It's not "my way of playing the game" it is about bosses meaning something. If everyone has diamonds then diamonds lose all value.

If Bosses can be trivialized by using 2 chaos orbs then they aren't much of a boss.

That's nonsensical.

In your mind, ppl could trivialise a boss when they are able to add some lighting res with a craft that costs currency.
While you "trivialise" the boss too with using just another ring from your stash.
So... the actual thing here is "adding res - no matter the method - trivialises bosses". Well, then it's because the bosses in this game are trivial.

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Even then the game already gives you lots of tools and ways of dealing with this, you don't need another one.

Meaningless because it subjective.

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Honestly I'm not against GGG creating an *Easy* difficulty mode for people that want a more relaxing experience, because it seems that's what a portion of the community wants: "A much easier game".

So it IS some weird self-gratification... instead of allowing ppl to use different tools than you want to use who still play together - you want them to be somewhere else, because you want your "not easy" PoE experience to be "pure".
Again, ARPGs are not hard, period.

They can be difficult to learn with all the required knowledge, they can take a lot of time depending on the grind, but they are not "hard". You know what's hard?
https://youtu.be/bsmk2VMxS4Q?si=6xPTZFaIDNNA27k-&t=253

You are kind of correct that some bosses in PoE1 and 2 are "Trivial" I wish their elemental attacks had a small value of penetration so that the 75%
X resist doesn't make them that easy.

But there is a difference here. Swapping rings potentially leaves you weaker because if you improvise and get a weak one for the lightning resist only, then you are trading your other stats for it. Yeah you get good defence, but also get weaker at the same time, so it is not the same as crafting.

Elden Ring? Never played it but I've beaten Dark Souls and I heard from some friends that Elden Ring is not as hard as Dark Souls.

Weird self-gratification, "pure"? Oh evil me... wanting to give people options.
Like if "Easy" mode wasn't one of the most common things in gaming, like ever.

What a stretch.