Keep the gameplay slow and meaningful.

Poe2 doesn't really have meaningful combat

"

arandan#3174 написал:

There is absolutely no way to square the current poe2 endgame with slow and meaningful combat.

That's why we need additional change. People advocating for an interesting combat system have been making this point for a long time.

"

arandan#3174 написал:

For that to happen both breach and delirium would need to be completely reworked along with major changes to the loot structure.

For those two mechanics specifically, the adjustments would be straight forward. What's needed is far more foundational than individual league mechanics. This more recent change of lowering monster density while increasing HP rewards is just one small step in that direction. Adjustments to specific mechanics can be made to complement or conform to them.

"

arandan#3174 написал:

As long as we follow the 15+ year old IIR+IIQ formula, killing as many things as quickly as possible is going to be optimal.

That's right. I made a thread describing this exact phenomena of how players chasing the most efficient farming strategy, has warped the perception of players, who confuse the objective of obtaining loot, with the process of getting there.

Players will, and should, always be trying to pursue loot and power in a game like PoE. I doubt very many people would outright disagree with that premise, and we're well aware of that. However, the incentive structure in the game for efficient acquisition is disconnected from considerations of how to make that incentive.

It would be a bit like saying:
"Because so many people have an incentive to get money to live, that means going to work 5-9 every day is the most fun they could possibly have."
It doesn't follow. Which makes bringing up the idea of player tendencies a strange defense of the min/maxed AoE clear grind, in my opinion.

"

arandan#3174 написал:

The reduction to pack size and introduction of monster toughness changes nothing - you're still incentivized to kill as many of those 'tougher' enemies as quickly as possible. That leaves no place for combo based playstyle.

So if you followed the last thing I said closely, you'll understand why this is incorrect framing. By saying that the incentive structure still exists, and therefore the density reduction change, "changes nothing", what you are doing is conflating the incentive(seeking loot, something all players want), with the change in the experience of obtaining the loot.

In that regard, you're incorrect. It changes something, it was just never intended to change the loot acquisition incentive. There are many more changes that I would like to see, but this is just one step in the right direction. It will not change the game on a fundamental level, but a needed piece to achieve the big picture.

So if you were only concerned about the incentive structure for obtaining loot being changed, rest assured that will never happen. These changes are only about the combat experience. You won't need to worry about these changes going forward, because nothing will be changed about the player incentive to pursue grinding for loot.

"

Hyperspacing#5593 написал:

I'm on your side. But two things.

Can I make a suggestion to be conscientious of the framing when saying that "PoE1 requires no skill", because it will come off as provocative and you will lose some people for your cause. Can I suggest instead pointing out how the gameplay aspect taken in isolation is the issue. That the gameplay involved with the AoE clear meta specifically, requires little to no skill. People will simply use your framing to conflate your statement with the mechanics, theory crafting, and knowledge aspects of PoE1.

Second thing:
In this topic, there are about 3-4 very common arguments that people will use against what you're advocating for. Including strawmen about what "slow combat", or "combos" mean, appeals to tradition, and appeals to popularity.

For appeals to popularity, feel free to include a link to my thread at the bottom of your post. It's long post that delves into why players are pigeonholed into AoE clear (aka zoom) builds. And it isn't because they are fun.

In fact, someone here has already tried making this point indirectly.

"Zoom is not fun. It's loot FOMO"
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3879773

"

Poe2 doesn't really have meaningful combat

At least it has one, unlike Poe1.

"

WhisperSlade#0532 написал:

By saying that the incentive structure still exists, and therefore the density reduction change, "changes nothing", what you are doing is conflating the incentive(seeking loot, something all players want), with the change in the experience of obtaining the loot.

Reducing the number of monsters does _nothing_ to change the experience of obtaining the loot.

All this change does is force you to find the optimal toughness to pack size ratio once the new atlas passive come in 0.5, and then one shot the screen whilst moving as fast as possible.

"

WhisperSlade#0532 написал:

So if you were only concerned about the incentive structure for obtaining loot being changed, rest assured that will never happen. These changes are only about the combat experience. You won't need to worry about these changes going forward, because nothing will be changed about the player incentive to pursue grinding for loot.

I don't know where you got that bit from. I'm not worried about that at all and it will OBVIOUSLY never happen in a loot based grinding game.

"

WhisperSlade#0532 написал:

It doesn't follow. Which makes bringing up the idea of player tendencies a strange defense of the min/maxed AoE clear grind, in my opinion.

I'm not defending anything, I'm saying that these changes do nothing to move the game towards slow and meaningful combat.

For that to happen the amount of loot you acquire by blasting 2-3 screens of mobs whilst mapping would need to be normalised with killing say 1 'tough' rare pack.

That is impossible to achieve with the current loot acqusition model. You'd need to essentially either turn every rare mob into a boss, or severely disincentivise going fast by reducing IIQ and/or IIR.

edit: I'll give you an example here using poe1, since this has been attempted before using the current IIR + IIQ formula.

Take the titanic + gigantification scarab exile grind from a few leagues ago. Many people are still using this as some grand example of reducing zoomy playstyle in favour of a more grounded grind.

In reality that farming method was still about one shotting those exiles as fast as possible and jamming as many mobs as possible into each subsequent ritual.

All that farming strat required was a very high entry ticket cost, because if you were to attempt it without a min-maxed build, you'd essentially never recover the entry cost, let alone make profit.

Poe2 endgame follows the exact same loot acqusition methods and it at no point allowed for slow and/or meaningful combat.
If that is the goal, then a lot of what is already in the game needs to change along with a drastic shift in how new content is to be introduced.

+1

Poe1 enjoyers should play poe1 for whole 4 months, not invade and spam to make a copy-paste of poe1 in poe2.

Perhaps then they won't be so eager to yap about seasonal game models etc.

Define Meaningful Combat.
It should be its own post define meaningful combat for me.

I dont think it exists
what are you talking about .

Examples , screen clips.
Show me, what are you talking about.

"

Jitter912#4278 написал:

Define Meaningful Combat.
It should be its own post define meaningful combat for me.

I dont think it exists
what are you talking about .

Examples , screen clips.
Show me, what are you talking about.

hi!

no-hit/less items equipped=more reward content would be an example of that.

give me an example of a campaign boss and i'll try to make a clip.

"

Hyperspacing#5593 написал:

I've played both games and it takes 0 skill and I mean absolutely no skill to plow through Poe 1.

for the people who make these threads: achievements are public and we can see you've never gotten past 2 voidstones.

"

Jitter912#4278 написал:

Define Meaningful Combat.

Different monsters require different techniques.

Different maps require you to wear different gear.

Sometimes the only thing you can do is run away, get stronger and come back later.